• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

The Great D&D Schism: The End of an age and the scattering of gamers

I know I'm responding to the OP, but this seems like rose-colored glasses. By the time 4e came out, I was already done with 3.5. I'd grown extremely disappointed with the ruleset as a whole; the time had passed when I could overlook its flaws for its perks. I didn't like the game anymore, and I still don't.

There's no magical scenario where 4e didn't exist where I'd still be playing 3.5. Perhaps I wouldn't be gaming at all, or perhaps I would have moved away from D&D and played all these other great games that are around which lack such toxicity.

By the tail end of 3.5 (pre 4e announcement) we had pages of house rules to work around the system, and even then were not always happy with the game. A friend just pulled up and printed a copy of our old 3.5 house rules to bring to a game tonight...(See my pathfinder thread about trying again) and it is 9 pages long. These are not campaign specific either they are classes and spells and feats and skills and books...

I am not playing 4e right now, but I was late into last year (and still may get one going soon) but if 4e never came out I would be done with D&D by now...
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Well I guess I am stupid then. I could not in 2002, 2003,2004,or 2007 do any of the following with out opening a book... Disarm, Grapple, Trip, Sunder... to this day even after watching that video I do not know what steps 2-4 are on the grapple rules, but because I just watched it like 3 times I know it starts with an opp attack.

Really, you could not remember the AoO -> Touch attack -> grapple check sequence (I don't even list moving into the enemies square as that is so obvious)? Or AoO -> Opposed attacks for both Disarm and Sunder?
 
Last edited:




I'm not trying to be a prick when I say this, but are you honestly reading what is being presented and watching what we are watching?

The point was that WoTc tried to make other editions such as 3rd edition into being crap while 4th edition was supposed to be this "state of the art bit of fresh air".

I see it as them saying "Hey that game we all played was awesome, but always had some flaws, we want to make a new edition and clean it up to play better at the table" nothing they said =crap... they showed the flaws they wanted to fix. If I make a new pen that doesn't explode ink ever, and say "Are you sick of pens exploding and getting ink your pockets?" that doesn't mean every pen ever exploded, or that they are crap... just that is what I improved.


Really, you could not remember the AoO -> Touch attack -> grapple check sequence? Or AoO -> Opposed attacks for both Disarm and Sunder?
OK, even reading this I am a bit confused, and I am pretty smart and play ALOT of games... so lets break it down.

To grapple I provoke an attack of opp, then make a touch attack (seems straight forward so far) and if I hit is he then grappled? lets check...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm
Grapple

Grapple Checks

Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:


Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier

The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small -4, Tiny -8, Diminutive -12, Fine -16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll.

Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2

Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3

Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4

Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Grappling Consequences

While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.

No Threatened Squares

You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus

You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

No Movement

You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling.

If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item

You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Cast a Spell

You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Damage Your Opponent

While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Draw a Light Weapon

You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.

Escape from Grapple

You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

Move

You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.

Retrieve a Spell Component

You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check.

Pin Your Opponent

You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

Break Another’s Pin

If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned.

Use Opponent’s Weapon

If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a -4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action).

You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action.

If You’re Pinning an Opponent

You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.

You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt.

You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa).

You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent.

If You’re Pinned by an Opponent

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

Joining a Grapple

If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple.

If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against.

Multiple Grapplers

Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.

so there is a lot there, lets just break it down...

Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2

Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3

Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4

Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
so that is pretty easy, they either do or don't get an attac of opp, and then if they damage you it stops, if not continue... with you so far.

Step 2

Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
make a touch attack check (although I agree with the video by now everyone at the table is board and mad)

Step 3

Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.
wait what is a grapple check? I need to double check that now...

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier

The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small -4, Tiny -8, Diminutive -12, Fine -16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll.
so now I get to back engenner the trolls grapple check...

trolls have +9 attack with there claws, and the base is +4 they have a str of 23 so that is +6 and they are large +4 so +14...ok now we roll... then what??

Step 4

Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.
ok, so that doesn't matter till next round...

so what can a troll do if grappled?
 


Did you use the Grapple rules often?

I know you asked Morrus, but I think my answer is important... no

It is one of the MANY rules that became MAD work arounds... PCs only used grapple if they had characters with special class features or feats (rember in 4e we call them powers) and then they would have to just keep the page marked...

IF a DM was going to use them they would have a monster with special abilities and mark the page out ahead of time...
 

I see it as them saying "Hey that game we all played was awesome, but always had some flaws, we want to make a new edition and clean it up to play better at the table" nothing they said =crap... they showed the flaws they wanted to fix. If I make a new pen that doesn't explode ink ever, and say "Are you sick of pens exploding and getting ink your pockets?" that doesn't mean every pen ever exploded, or that they are crap... just that is what I improved.

The problem is they over exaggerated the issue to an almost ridiculous level. The books contain an index for god sakes. I could understand if that was your first game, happens in "every" edition, but most people at that age are aware of an index. Also, what they focused on became a hell of a lot worse when 4th edition arrived, unless you had DDI. I can tell you how many books one would have to sift through in order to find facts on specific powers and actions. Now one could say that all you needed to do was write the power down, but that could also be said about the rules from other editions. Grapple was a core rule that generally effected everyone so it was a rule that should have been written down, or bookmarked for easy reference.
 

I know you asked Morrus, but I think my answer is important... no

It is one of the MANY rules that became MAD work arounds... PCs only used grapple if they had characters with special class features or feats (rember in 4e we call them powers) and then they would have to just keep the page marked...

IF a DM was going to use them they would have a monster with special abilities and mark the page out ahead of time...

If a rule is barely used then of course you are not expected to memorize it and need to look it up.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top