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D&D 5E Is the Real Issue (TM) Process Sim?

Lokiare

Banned
Banned
The bottom line for a lot of us is that we played D&D a certain way all the way until 2008. During that time I'm sure others played differently. That was an advantage. Yes in a few instances over that time period especially with optional rules, we ignored stuff. The heart of the game though was playable. I dislike the use of the term abstraction vs simulationism. It misses the true divide. You can love abstraction and simulation. Just ask any player who plays the wargame "Third Reich". It's a massive abstraction. You don't worry a bit about individual men in the army. You are though trying to simulate warfare. I also admit that there are concessions to reality that both sides make. Personally I've always felt my approach required the least. I only have to believe that my PC heroically battles one while wounded. That is it. The problem is when the game puts in mechanics that really can only be interpreted one way. Basically people like myself can't even use those mechanics. If they are rare enough then we will do what we have always done. We will houserule them out. If though the entire game is so full of them that they really can't be ignored, then we will ignore 5e. 4e fooled us. We won't be fooled by 5e. Everyone like myself that I know has every intention of carefully examining the game prior to purchase. Day one, D&D will suffer sales losses if it goes too far the other way. So given that situation, what is the solution? Well for one I am hoping for modularity. A clean modularity that is easy to plug in or plug out. I don't have high hopes though because I don't think the devs really fully understand the issue well enough to make the decisions. I do though realize because of the surveys that perhaps 5e will be very light on these objectionable mechanics. In that case see above. That would though I'd think anger some of the other side. I don't know. From a business perspective, I believe damage on a miss is a colossal mistake. It was not be asked for by anyone though now it's defended to the death. It offended the very people the game appears to be targeting. Just not a wise move.
Unfortunately 5E is shafting the other side in the process. They need every person who's ever played D&D as customers in order to beat the 3E/4E sales and to make it a success. Because the game was rebooted into 4E because of the failure of the 3E sales goals and 4E was rebooted into 5E because of its sales. The only way they will succeed is if they can capture the 4E and 3E and 2E and 1E and OE and BECMI audience. They also have to grab the Pathfinder crowd and the OSR crowd to have enough income to stand on their own (and as far as all the info available that is what they need to do). The problem is what they are calling modularity is more like a few tacked on optional rules. You cannot put 4E on top of 1E and call it a complete workable game. It simply doesn't work. I do think you are correct when you say the developers don't really understand the problem. The problem is they need to make the game work for many different groups and they don't appear to be doing that. They appear instead to be working toward the lowest common denominator and it is going to end up making many groups not want to play it.
 

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Great posts [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION], [MENTION=66434]ExploderWizard[/MENTION], [MENTION=50304]mlund[/MENTION]. I've nothing to add but agreement. And that I cannot xp Balesir so if someone would do so I would appreciate it.
 

mlund

First Post
What is completely implausible to me, is that this sort of argumentation leads to a better game for the majority of people. It leads to complications that for the vast majority of people is tedious if not outright repulsive.

You're totally entitled to like that stuff, and I might like it too under certain circumstances. But with that approach, any model you come up with can be subject to similar criticism.

I think the point missed here is the we can't appeal to "realism" and "simulation" or rejection of "abstraction" to try to convert a what is represented by a failed melee attack in D&D (6 seconds locked in melee with one or more opponents) into meaning that no physical contact or injury could've possibly been involved in that "miss." Roll a natural "1" on the attack? Sure. That's an utter fail. The other guy left you flailing around in the dirt like a moron. That's what happens when you crit-fail.

- Marty Lund
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I think the point missed here is the we can't appeal to "realism" and "simulation" or rejection of "abstraction" to try to convert a what is represented by a failed melee attack in D&D (6 seconds locked in melee with one or more opponents) into meaning that no physical contact or injury could've possibly been involved in that "miss." Roll a natural "1" on the attack? Sure. That's an utter fail. The other guy left you flailing around in the dirt like a moron. That's what happens when you crit-fail.

That is one way to see it, but there is a hundred ways. Many groups give a different interpretation on a roll of 1 vs a roll of "1 point less than you needed", the first being a large mistake while the second being almost a success but not quite. It's quite natural and spontaneous to do so, but other groups just treat it as binary, i.e. either you succeed or not. In fact, unless you do have critical failures in your ruleset (not in standard D&D), the game leaves it up to you how to describe your result, but the effect is really binary (except critical hits, which give an extra).
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
It's even easier if monster AC and HP aren't hidden from players like it's some sort of competition between parties with incomplete knowledge.
Sure, if you want to remove the gaming element from the game.

Let me be very clear: The One True Storytelling mechanic isn't in D&D. There is no:
1. I tell a story
2. You tell a story
3. And we fake that one of us get's to "add it to the shared fiction"

There is no fiction in games, even D&D, at least outside of storygames.
 

mlund

First Post
Sure, if you want to remove the gaming element from the game.

Since Chess and Go are both games even though all players have perfect knowledge I must obviously have screwed up what I was trying to communicate.

You don't remove the target numbers and rolls - I'm purely pointing out that you can make the knowledge of the targets public to the players. The cost of this isn't removing the game from anything, unless playing "blindly guess the monster's AC and Hit Points" is some sort of sub-game you are married to.

Generally I only ever saw use in blind AC and HP to try and keep people from easily min-maxing their nickel and dime bonuses like Power Attack, and as I've gotten more DM experience I found less and less value in it.

Instead open AC and HP make the resolution and narration smoother.

There's no need for the exchange of 'I've got a 19." "You hit. Roll damage." "14 points" DM scribbling. "It's still up." "..."

when the played can just roll two dice at once and everyone immediately witnesses the Rogue wipe out half the centaur's hit points and hear "I leap across his back and dig my dagger deep into his flank." "He screams and staggers slightly before fixing a murderous gaze on you."

Likewise open player defenses and HP reduced DM book keeping or constantly rechecking stats and recounting buffs. The DM rolls the hit and damage and announces the result as dramatically as she pleases.

I'll trade away the likelihood of someone over-killing a monster and wasting resources for that sort of table-flow any day, but Your Mileage May Vary.

- Marty Lund
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
Since Chess and Go are both games even though all players have perfect knowledge I must obviously have screwed up what I was trying to communicate.
Chess and Go aren't D&D. They are finite games with no hidden information, but they are still designed to enable game play.

You don't remove the target numbers and rolls - I'm purely pointing out that you can make the knowledge of the targets public to the players. The cost of this isn't removing the game from anything, unless playing "blindly guess the monster's AC and Hit Points" is some sort of sub-game you are married to.
Yes! That is the heart and soul of gaming the game in D&D. Not just determining AC of course, but you get the idea.

Instead open AC and HP make the resolution and narration smoother.

There's no need for the exchange of 'I've got a 19." "You hit. Roll damage." "14 points" DM scribbling. "It's still up." "..."
Which is why you're not looking to play an RPG, but a storygame. Those lines are standard dialogue in D&D because they are basically what actually happens when the game is ran and played.

when the played can just roll two dice at once and everyone immediately witnesses the Rogue wipe out half the centaur's hit points and hear "I leap across his back and dig my dagger deep into his flank." "He screams and staggers slightly before fixing a murderous gaze on you."
Except this example doesn't include any game play in it. Not to mention the player is declaring attempted actions that actually would alter his odds for the roll after he has made his roll. Not cool. Read my first post. There are no narrative resolution mechanics in D&D as it is designed like any standard game. Not a storygame.

Likewise open player defenses and HP reduced DM book keeping or constantly rechecking stats and recounting buffs. The DM rolls the hit and damage and announces the result as dramatically as she pleases.
Except the DM tracks everything behind screen so the players can improve their game play by logging what they want to on their side of the screen. This is basic D&D stuff. What you're talking about is shared storytelling, which has never been part of games.
 

pemerton

Legend
Wizards gave out a 4e module that had the PCs come in to finish off some special beholder infused with shadowfell/fey whatever flavor of the day plane stuff. The NPCs involved were powerful enough to have "cornered" the beholder in some cave complex, but were too beat up to finish it off. The leader NPC had broken an arm or leg as their excuse not to join in with the PCs for the final push.

My first reaction was "what? this guy is tough enough to take on a beholder but there is no one to cast Cure X wounds? Shouldn't s/he be at full HP after an extended rest?"
I don't know the module, but I've used this sort of setup (injured NPCs who need healing) in my 4e game.

It rests upon a couple of assumptions. One is an assumption about action resolution, namely that the action resolution rules whereby combat is resolved don't model all the possible outcomes that might occur to people in the fiction. So no PC ever has his/her arm broken in combat; but broken arms can still occur. (And a GM could impose one on a PC as a consequence of a failed skill challenge or skill check in the right circumstances - you would use the disease track to model it mechanically.) I think Gygax saw hit point similarly in classic D&D - I don't think he assumed that every peg-legged sailor in Greyhawk had been hit by a Sword of Sharpness or a Staff of Withering, even though the actual combat resolution mechanics don't permit the infliction of that sort of injury without using a powerful magic item.

The second assumption is a mechanical one: namely, that healing a broken arm or similar ailment requires the 8th level ritual Remove Affliction.

When injuries that are impossible to have occur in play and could be trivially healed if they DID happen get trotted out as plot devices, the integrity of the game world takes a huge hit. Its one of the reasons that a world in which there is nothing that can't be cured by a night's sleep make any scenario dependent on the incapacity of another next to impossible to implement.
Any combat system that relies on hit points will mean that, in the fiction, people can suffer injuries that can't be the result of the mechanics. Heck, even crit systems have this issue: there is no mechanical way in RQ or RM, for instance, to cut off someone's finger, but I wouldn't let that stop me narrating an NPC who lost a finger in a sword fight. It just means that our resolution systems aren't total models of all the possibilities within the gameworld. They're doing a different job (namely, resolving the situations the players put their PCs into).

As to the night's sleep issue: as I mentioned 4e has a simple and versatile way of handling lingering afflictions, namely, the disease/curse track.
 
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pemerton

Legend
It's not unreasonable to look at the idea that you can rest for a night and non-magically go from "almost dead" to "perfectly fine" and take away the message that, since this is so unrealistic, the former message ("almost dead") can't be what it's telling us, ergo hit point loss can't be physical damage.

The issue I have is that I see a lot of other (what I feel are) compelling reasons to presume hit point loss is physical damage. Thus, the idea of major non-magical healing from a single night's rest has to say something else instead of "rethink what hit points are." The conclusion I come to is that this particular instance is not a simulationist model; the game is breaking any semblance of suspension of disbelief in this area in favor of keeping the game going.

<snip>

That said, I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that I'd be happier if this particular break from simulationism was reconciled; in this case, by changing the rule to something closer to First Edition's more harsh rules on the rate of natural healing.
If people are suspending their process-sim inclinations at that point, what is their principled objection to others being willing to suspend them at different points - eg not to worry that (under the current approach) the gamerules don't make room for a GWF who is unable to wear down a foe given 6 seconds of melee contact?

Also, if we want simulation of real injuries, 1st AD&D "natural healing" won't do it. No amount of natural healing will regrow a severed digit or limb, will set a bad fracture, will reinsert entrails and reseal the tissue of the abdominal cavity, etc.
 

pemerton

Legend
Generally speaking, if Y happens, it must have been caused by something (X). If in the mechanics, HP is lost, there must be a reason that HP is lost. If in the fiction, injury is suffered, there must be a source of that injury.

<snip>

A mechanical process in a game like D&D is there to help adjudicate the effect of the various actions the people are taking in the fiction.
The loss of hit points is represented most viscerally by a notation on a piece of paper. That is caused by a die roll mediated through someone's brain and thereby interpreted as a certain sort of "move" in a game. The die roll is in turn triggered by an action declaration, typically "I attack it".

Whether or not that notation on a piece of paper also represents something in the shared fiction of the game is a further question. Many people take the view that not all such notations do represent something. For instance, many people doubt that writing down XP totals actually represents something in the fiction. Similarly, I don't think anyone thinks that initiative scores represent anything in the fiction (they're just a metagame ranking device for making the action economy work).

Given that reducing the hit point total does move the target closer to defeat, we can confidently say that a hit point loss represents that much, namely, that the opponent who made the attack - ie who engaged the target in combat - has pushed the target closer to defeat. Whether the hit point loss corresponds to any discrete injury is not a question we can answer just from considering the mechanical situation (unless of course the hit point loss reduces the target to 0 hp). It seems to me largely a matter of taste.

D&Dnext seems to default to the assumption that if you're not bloodied yet, then hit point loss does not correlate with injury, but if you are it does. That doesn't particularly suit my taste, and I think it can cause some other wonkiness, but it's not an obviously flawed approach. Others who want to argue that every hit point loss event at the table corresponds to an injury event in the fiction are of course free to take that approach, but I don't think the mechanics in any way mandate, or even speak in favour of, that approach rather than the D&Dnext default or (what I take to be) the 4e default that the only injuries are those which correspond to condition infliction (including "bloodied" and "dying") as opposed to simple hit point loss.

The mechanic only exists to resolve the question of "I do X. What Y happens?" The mechanics do not resolve the question of "Y happened. What X did I do?"
Says who? (Other than you, obviously.) Gygax clearly had a different view, in relation to attack rolls: you don't know exactly what you did until attack and damage are resolved; and in relation to saving throws, where again you don't know exactly what you did until the saving throw is resolved. And it's not as if Gygax didn't know a thing or two about how D&D mechanics might work!

The rolling of dice is an answer to the question, "What happens when I try to hit the goblin with my sword?"
You can treat it that way. I think it's most neutrally interpreted as answering the question, "As I engage the goblin in melee while wielding a sword, who is being worn down?"

Without that try, there's no roll of the dice. There's no outcome to resolve if there is no cause that creates the potential outcome.
You can treat it that way. Or I could say: without that conflict, there's no roll of the dice. Nothing in the mechanics speaks in favour of your treatment over mine.

The player announces what her character *does*. The resolution tells you what happens when she does that.
The player announced what his character hopes for - say, defeating the goblin in melee - and the resolution tells you to what degree, if any, that hope was realised. Again, nothing in the mechanics speaks in favour of your approach over mine. Gygax clearly thought that at least some of his mechanics (say, attacks and action economy, and also saving throws) played better when interpreted in the way I favour. And of course games were designed in reaction to D&D (eg RQ, RM) that overtly took the approach you favour.

the action the players take in a TTRPG is "I do x." This is a core gameplay loop: Player does a thing, DM describes the results of doing the thing, player does another thing, and on and on.
Sure, the player does a thing. That may or may not correspond to the character doing a thing at the same time that correlates in any meaningful way. The player can declare "I roll an attack". In the fiction, that corresponds to "My guy engages that guy in combat and tries to defeat him", but in D&D at least it's hard to be much more specific than that until the action is resolved.

Mechanics exist to adjudicate results, not determine characters' actions.
The mechanics need an input (action) to describe an output (result).
D&D's mechanics singularly do not require an input of a detailed description of an action in the fiction. The rules of all pre-4e editions, for instance, are clear that a player can roll a saving throw to try and evade the effects of a spell without describing any evasive action being taken by the PC in the fiction. And Gygax in his DMG is quite clear that the action taken (or not taken) can be narrated after the save is resolved and the mechanical (and hence, often, fiction) consequence thereby known.

This seems to presume that the output is determined before the input, that we know the effect before we know the cause
Correct. Unless your PC is wielding a vorpal sword, until you roll the damage roll, and we thereby learn whether or not the enemy has been reduced to 0 hp, we can't know whether or not your blow struck his/her neck with enough force to sever it.

The input is broadly described ("I attack the orc!"), and the output can be broadly described ("The orc is wounded!").
As I said earlier, no one is stopping you doing it that way if you want to (although some people will, perhaps reasonably, doubt that the orc is very badly wounded if s/he goes on to win the combat and continue to carry on without signs of physical debilitation.)

But nothing in either the general idea of RPG mechanics, nor in the particular design of D&D mechanics, pushes in favour of your preferred approach. You might wish that D&D was a different sort of system (perhaps more like Runequest, say). But it's not. Gygax's way isn't the only way, but it's not like he was wrong about how his game system was meant to work.
 

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