Do creatures in your games take actions according to their mental stats?

[Morrus]

IIRC, in the Book of Challenges it has a small side bar about playing monsters that are smarter than you. It basically suggests that if the opponents mental abilities are sufficiently high that it has come up with a counter to whatever your players are planning and you should run with that.

Yeah, that does seem to be the solution that most people have suggested; I've tried it many times over the years. I've personally always found that solution very unsatisfactory, though. Just auto-nerfing your players' clever ideas? It doesn't make for a fun game, IMO.

 

[delericho]

Yeah, that does seem to be the solution that most people have suggested; I've tried it many times over the years. I've personally always found that solution very unsatisfactory, though. Just auto-nerfing your players' clever ideas? It doesn't make for a fun game, IMO.

Agreed.

If nothing else, that might cause the DM to disallow Spock's suggestion (in "Wrath of Khan") that "He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."

 

[Grogg of the North]

Yeah, that does seem to be the solution that most people have suggested; I've tried it many times over the years. I've personally always found that solution very unsatisfactory, though. Just auto-nerfing your players' clever ideas? It doesn't make for a fun game, IMO.

It's something that I've tried to avoid too. One of my players gets a lot of enjoyment about coming up with battle plans*. So to immediately counter it would be like me saying "No, you can't have fun tonight". Instead, if the monster is very smart, I try to give them a few escape routes once the battle goes south.

*Though there have been several instances where his plans have been so off the wall that I can't help but sit there thinking "No, there's no way that this monster would have considered that as a viable attack!".

 

[N'raac]

IIRC, in the Book of Challenges it has a small side bar about playing monsters that are smarter than you. It basically suggests that if the opponents mental abilities are sufficiently high that it has come up with a counter to whatever your players are planning and you should run with that.

Yeah, that does seem to be the solution that most people have suggested; I've tried it many times over the years. I've personally always found that solution very unsatisfactory, though. Just auto-nerfing your players' clever ideas? It doesn't make for a fun game, IMO.

All valid issues. As a variant on the theme, what about an opposed INT check. Sure, the Dragon has a 30 INT (+10 INT roll), but that 20 INT wizard has +5, and his teammates can roll to Aid Another, so the Dragon gets an advantage due to his INT, but not a guaranteed nerf of the player plans. Of course, other aspects of the creature need to be considered (personality like the arrogant wizard; WIS - does he apply himself or just assume he's so much smarter he can't lose - a mental tortoise and the hare; etc.)

Agreed.

If nothing else, that might cause the DM to disallow Spock's suggestion (in "Wrath of Khan") that "He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."

Seems to me Spock is not stupid, so the opposed INT roll gives him a chance in and of itself. I would also factor in that experience as a bonus to the players' check (ie does Khan figure out 3D tactics before the PCs can take advantage of his inexperience in that regard?)

 

[Grogg of the North]

One way to look at it is to consider Stargate SG-1. In one episode there's an exchange between Thor, an Asgard alien, and Major Carter that goes something like this:

Carter: How am I supposed to help figure out how to defeat kiron-based technology if I don't even know what a kiron is?
Thor: The Asgard would never invent a weapon that propels small weights of iron and carbon alloys by igniting a powder of potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulfur.
Carter: Okay, I get your point.
Thor: We cannot think like you

So even if the BBEG has huge mental stats perhaps he does not consider a large hairless monkey waving a length of pounded steel around to be a serious threat. Perhaps he considers mortal magic to be "useless" against his unstoppable might.

Thoughts?

 

[Savage Wombat]

Yeah, that does seem to be the solution that most people have suggested; I've tried it many times over the years. I've personally always found that solution very unsatisfactory, though. Just auto-nerfing your players' clever ideas? It doesn't make for a fun game, IMO.

What if you put a cap on it? Say, the monster has a DM-force response to the 1st clever idea the party has, and after that is hosed. Or first two for a really smart monster.

 

[delericho]

One way to look at it is to consider Stargate SG-1. In one episode there's an exchange between Thor, an Asgard alien, and Major Carter...

I do like the notion that creatures should operate differently based on their nature as well as just their stats - that an Int 25 dragon and an Int 25 human would think differently.

So even if the BBEG has huge mental stats perhaps he does not consider a large hairless monkey waving a length of pounded steel around to be a serious threat. Perhaps he considers mortal magic to be "useless" against his unstoppable might.

Thoughts?

That's a tricky one, because at some point arrogance becomes foolishness, which is of course quite at odds with our supra-genius dragon. One of the things of note in the Carter/Thor conversation is that although the technology was different, that led them to respect the unknown tech, not to be dismissive of it.

So, while I agree that a specific BBEG may well have a specific weakness or blind-spot that causes him to be dismissive of PC capabilities, I wouldn't make it at all common - if nothing else, a creature that had such a blind-spot is unlikely to have risen to the point where it would be the BBEG. Some other evil force would probably have swallowed it up first!

 

[SkidAce]

What if you put a cap on it? Say, the monster has a DM-force response to the 1st clever idea the party has, and after that is hosed. Or first two for a really smart monster.

This sounds reasonable.

And you are not going to thwart the players plans with every monster they run into [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION], just the occasional genius ones.

IMHO, if you dont do this, then functionally, the PCs are the smarted creatures in the world, and the only ones capable of devising/preparing with clever plans. And we know that's not true right....right?

 

[N'raac]

To the SG-1 cite, I think this can also be taken as saying "We are more technologically advanced than you are. That does not mean we are more intelligent than you are."

 

[TwoSix]

I'd point out that a high Intelligence allows someone to process and recall a vast amount of information, but it doesn't necessarily make one a master of Xanatos Speed Chess. I'd say that level of skill requires a certain amount of ... monomania? That's probably the best word. Not every dragon or outsider is going to have the inclination or ability to decipher mortal motivations to the point of being able to lay out those type of plans.