D&D 5E No Cantrips Module

[Farscape]

As far as limiting the use of cantrips, can't we just say that casters gain the same number of cantrips as they do first level spells? Can't easily cut the durned things out entirely since they seem pretty baked into the game, from what we've seen.

I'm honestly not sure what people who dislike infinite cantrips would want caster to have in lieu of this ability. So as to not make this change a straight nerf of casters. Use of the 1E spells per day progression chart, perhaps? That would screw with the level by level balance--but of course that would be the point, to make the game more 1E-ish.

When was the last time a wizard was actually nerfed?

P.S: Nobody needs to think about this very long.

 

[Farscape]

I don't really like using encounter resource, but you could say that a wizard can only use them 5 times per encounter.

 

[Sadras]

Nice thread @Dausuul

A possible option:
As others have noted - Read Magic becomes a class feature.
Furthermore Wizards get a mandatory bonus 1st level spell called Cantrip which they still have to learn - Vancian style. The Cantrip spell will have a list of sub-cantrips. The wizards may choose to study a different sub-cantrip each day they study the Cantrip spell.

Some of the sub-cantrip spells of course would need to be changed to make them 1st level comparable i.e. Ray of Frost might allow the wizard to fire off Frost Rays for an entire minute or perhaps he may fire off a certain number within a period of time.

It also allows for the wizard to select the Cantrip spell multiple times like you would for selecting any other 1st level spell multiple times.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Essentially, what you want to do is move up the lowest baseline of the class but not touch the upper end at all.

It's not really moving it up if what they get isn't any stronger than the strongest cantrip. It's just looking at replacing something effective with something equally effective, so that they're not giving up effectiveness.

With all the comparisons to weapons, perhaps giving them some sort of weapon proficiency works? It's not very evocative...hm..

That's assuming that casters without at will cantrips actually do suck, which is far from a universal opinion. There shouldn't be any particular hit to the caster from removing them - I doesn't look like they'll cause more damage than a weapon.

I'm not saying there's any inherent issue with giving them up, merely that players who give up a feature should have the option of replacing it with something equal. If weapons are equal, maybe we think in terms of that, or things equal to it?

And I kind of like the strong round/weak round playstyle, timing your strong hits for maximum effect, and I know quite a lot of people that have played casters like that and have no problem with them. And laser-gun fingers does not fit my idea of what D&D fantasy should look like, especially at low level.

Sure, there's a lot to love about no-cantrips. I'd just like, if I were the DM, to offer my players something instead.

 

[Farscape]

I think a module is crucial because at the moment, a certain playstyle is being forced upon people.

See, I sometimes enjoy a low magic game and the current ruleset make that difficult. There is a difference in magic its3lf being rare and rare people who can use magic.

I also wouldn't mind seeing only utility spells as at will cantrips and "pew pew" spells removed.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I think a module is crucial because at the moment, a certain playstyle is being forced upon people.

Is it? If your mage has chosen Read Magic, Message, and Mending, what play style has been forced on you?

I also wouldn't mind seeing only utility spells as at will cantrips and "pew pew" spells removed.

See, this is *you* trying to force a play style on others. If someone wants to choose Prestidigitation or Ray of Frost or Dancing Lights, how does that hurt your game?

 

[delericho]

As others have noted - Read Magic becomes a class feature.

Read "magic" shouldn't even be a thing. Books and scrolls containing magic spells should be written in a variety of obscure, dead, and ancient languages that the Wizard may or may not be able to read based on his studies of said languages. (And, FWIW, anyone else who has studied these same languages should likewise be able to 'read' those same books... or course, doing so would be equivalent to a layman reading deep legalese, or computer code, or similar - they may know the words, but that doesn't mean they have the context to understand them.)

 

[TwoSix]

Providing read magic and a familiar sounds decent enough though.

Maybe a stronger, tougher familiar, one that can actually attack. That gives the wizard something to do each turn that isn't cast a spell or shoot a crossbow.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The idea of cantrips is useful and doesn't need to be completely discarded. All magic should have a resource cost though. That is the foundation of the magic user class. The fighter is the consistent warrior, the mage is the specialist with utility and flashy effects. When this basic formula is messed with we get all kinds of issues.

1) The checks & balances that keep mages from complete domination are discarded. More spells per day, spell disruption becomes nigh impossible, scrolls & wands become widely available & plentiful.

2) Magic users get more and more magic to sling around. What is cheaply gained is used without care or thought.

3) Magic users become consistent baseline performers AND retain their capacity for flashy big top effects.

4) LFQW becomes a thing. If both classes are now stable performers the fighter is useless, etc. etc.

5) Fighters now need new toys so that they can have flashy effects like wizards. Why not? If the wizard gets to pew pew endless magic all day then the fighter needs a chance to go BIG BATTA BOOM once in awhile right?

6) The limitations on the fighters performing these non-magical BOOM effects feel ridiculous. Finding toys which make sense to be limited yet non-magical becomes a burden and a chore.


All of this because the basic differences in the play between the classes were eroded over time. The root causes are deeper beginning with the notion that the whole game revolves around fights per day and other nonsense.

It was never in the job description of magic user to be a CONSTANT fighter. Thats what the FIGHTER class is for. Until that major screwup is revisited there won't be an end to these issues.

 

[Dausuul]

All of this because the basic differences in the play between the classes were eroded over time. The root causes are deeper beginning with the notion that the whole game revolves around fights per day and other nonsense.

It was never in the job description of magic user to be a CONSTANT fighter. Thats what the FIGHTER class is for. Until that major screwup is revisited there won't be an end to these issues.

Would you mind not dragging that argument into this thread? I started it specifically because I was irritated with the "Pew Pew magic" thread, and wanted to discuss how the game could implement both options (casters with at-will cantrips and without them) instead of yelling about whose option should win. So far we've had a bunch of cool ideas and interesting discussion. Even if we don't end up with an official module for no-cantrip play, there's a ton of material here that people could use for homebrewing their own. I'd hate to see it degenerate into another slagfest.

As others have noted - Read Magic becomes a class feature.
Furthermore Wizards get a mandatory bonus 1st level spell called Cantrip which they still have to learn - Vancian style. The Cantrip spell will have a list of sub-cantrips. The wizards may choose to study a different sub-cantrip each day they study the Cantrip spell.

This is a nice idea! Maybe when you cast Cantrip, you choose any one wizard cantrip and gain the ability to cast it at will for, say, 5 minutes. You sacrifice a little raw firepower, but in exchange you gain the versatility of being able to grab whatever cantrip you need.