Only in America

It's also worth noting that the English approach allows for choice by schools and students - there are multiple exam boards, and each offers multiple papers/qualifications so that schools can choose particular elements of subjects to focus on, and in some cases students can choose within those subjects, often at the exam stage (I.e. a choice from the questions set within an exam).
 

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Unfortunately, US teachers are usually people that have never been outside the education system (other than a mall clerk during uni). Our youth have little chance to learn from someone with practical experience until college.
 

Canada handles things a bit differently. There are no SAT's or university entrance exams at all. ((Granted, it's been some time since I lived in Canada, so, it might have changed, if it has, then I've got egg on my face yet again))

You are granted entrance to universities based on your grades in school. When I went, some years ago, they looked at your final GPA and that was about it. Getting into university was easy. Graduating was difficult.

Contrast with Japan or Korea where it's unbelievably hard to get into the school you want. Insanely difficult tests for entrance and competition is brutal. But, once you're in, you're pretty much guaranteed to graduate so long as you actually bother to show up to class and virtually guaranteed a job before you graduate.

Not sure which system is better. :D Every one of my 3rd year uni students have jobs waiting for them after they graduate next year. Sheesh, must be nice. The companies in Japan almost do all their hiring through job fairs at universities and induct new employees a couple of weeks after graduation.
 

Not sure which system is better. :D Every one of my 3rd year uni students have jobs waiting for them after they graduate next year. Sheesh, must be nice. The companies in Japan almost do all their hiring through job fairs at universities and induct new employees a couple of weeks after graduation.
Not the same cultures when it comes to employment. In North America you are left on your own to find a job, but you can switch employers pretty easily. Even if this is changing, in Japan you are expected to work for the same companie all your life.
 

I think the last few posts show the difference between the centrally set/marked qualifications I am used to and the standardised tests which were noted as the US equivalent.

English qualifications are content-driven, in that the curriculum is designed by educators to teach key elements of each subject, and then to test understanding and application of those elements. This seems to be different from a US approach which has parallel tracks - a curriculum designed by individual teachers or schools, and assessed locally followed by a separate test which is disconnected from the design of the curriculum. In one sense, English education "teaches to the test" at least from age 14, but the test is aligned directly to the curriculum and designed by and in conjunction with teachers and educators. I'm sure there are educational theories which differentiate between curriculum assessment and aptitude assessment, with the SAT intended to do the latter, but it appears as if this has the effect of influencing teaching as much as a central curriculum design without the same degree of teacher buy-in.

Perhaps these are differences without substance, but I still find it notable in comparing the systems.

If a teacher is teaching his own preference and not preparing the student for the test that is coming, that teacher is incompetent.

In effect, everybody should be teaching to to the test. That is the point. To teach your studentes to pass the test. With a teacher of good skill, the only students who fail are those who are dumb (and should fail) or those with genuine ability, but have a disability in taking tests.

given that in America, allowances for test taking disability exist, the large majority of people who fail tests are likely "dumb"

Standardized tests are a standard that everyone is held to. people can come in all sizes, but you still must be this tall to ride.
 

If a teacher is teaching his own preference and not preparing the student for the test that is coming, that teacher is incompetent.

In effect, everybody should be teaching to to the test. That is the point. To teach your studentes to pass the test. With a teacher of good skill, the only students who fail are those who are dumb (and should fail) or those with genuine ability, but have a disability in taking tests.

No, that's not the point. Teachers should be teaching toward a competency in the curriculum, not to a single evaluation tool for that competency. Doing so would just be a myopic focus on a bureaucratic rule rather than focusing on the broader point of teaching kids that subject in the first place.
 

No, that's not the point. Teachers should be teaching toward a competency in the curriculum, not to a single evaluation tool for that competency. Doing so would just be a myopic focus on a bureaucratic rule rather than focusing on the broader point of teaching kids that subject in the first place.

Why do people not assume the test is testing that competency? That it is not asking a variety of questions and methods of measure (like essay)? Thus completing the circle.

There has always been a single evaluation. Whether you give an apple to the teacher to get that person to give you an A, or write an essay, or take a test, it's always come down to a single gate keeper, human or otherwise.

The standardized test attempts to reduce human variance factors (that you got Teacher A and I got Teacher B who went off on a tangent).

2 kids taking English 101 in 2 different schools better be working to the same material and metrics. otherwise, if they both get A's, what do I really know about their quality?
 

I don't take most of that as given at all. Is there any evidence that people who score low (or at least lower than the 50th percentile) are less likely to succeed in med school?

Moreover, does the test information tell us anything that a reasonably intelligent person could not already conclude from looking at their transcripts? To me, looking at grades, courses taken, and the rigor of where they were taken is a far better way of assessing the same thing. I doubt that the MCAT weeds out many people who have a good academic record but then bomb this particular test for some reason

This study concluded that, while the MCAT was not a good predictor by itself and should be used in conjunction with analysis of undergraduate GPA, the MCAT is indeed a good overall predictor of success in med school, and was better than examining undergraduate GPA alone. IOW, while using both is best, if you're only going to consider one, use the MCAT; if assigning weight to both when considering both, weight the MCAT more heavily.

http://medical-mastermind-community...ts-med-school-academics-better-than-uGPAs.pdf

This study, 4 years later, supports the conclusions of that one, and made additional findings that are being incorporated to improve the MCAT. (Certain things will be de-emphasized as their relevance decreases; certain subsections noted as being poorly correlative will be radically revised; the gender-bias- which actually predicts success in med school of women better than for men- will be addressed, etc.)

http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...ive_Validity_of_Three_Versions_of_the.20.aspx

And most doctors will tell you that they've forgotten most of what they learned in medical school. The point of standardized professional education is essentially to combat fraud (given what constituted a "doctor" before the Flexner report), which is a legitimate problem. However, I remain unconvinced that the standardized tests are really part of the solution.

I'm an attorney who is the sn of an MD. We both have that same position. So did my law-school teachers, who said that they couldn't pass the bar without studying for it.

And the primary reason why goes back to the Dartmouth study: most of what we learned, we don't use in daily practice. (The secondary reason is that what we learned at that level has often changed in validity' completeness and relevance- no need to know info that is no longer good.)

But again, as the Dartmouth study stated, because we have learned it once, we will find it easier to recall that information than someone seeking to learn it from scratch.

To put it in practical terms, if you're in a rural area, where there is only one MD for a huge geographic area, you'd want someone who actually took a broad base of classes in med school than someone who just focused on a specialty. While neither may have ever performed a particular operation or treated a particular disease, the generalist will get up to speed much faster than the guy who never studied it at all.

How about nothing? I don't think colleges and professional schools would be unable to make admissions decisions without the tests, and I'm not convinced that their decisions would be any worse.

When you double (or more) the number of students they must consider for admissions, you're going to increase the error rate by simple statistics. My dad served on the admissions board for Tulane med school for a while, pre-MCAT. It was a nightmare of looking at huge stacks of applications that were often essentially indistinguishable. MCATs- and similar tests- give you another evaluative tool- one proven to work (see above).

The other major point of these tests, professional licensure and certification, is largely a peer evaluation anyway; I don't see that cutting out the exams would really change the professions that much.

The Bar exams got their name because their intent is to "bar" the unqualified from practice. They're like any other standardized test out there, just harder. In my state, they recently added a practical; not the norm, yet, AFAIK.

But what is the quality that peer evaluation, really? It's assessing your skills against a known standard, just like the standardized tests claim to do...sometimes without the safeguards of an anonymous standardized test, and at greater expense.

The Texas practical for dentists, for instance, assesses your skills on live patients. That means a certain number of people have to volunteer to have their mouths poked around in by unlicensed, unproven dentists. Without weeder tests, you'd have to increase the number of volunteers...and examiners. There simply aren't enough qualified dentists willing to take the time to evaluate the prospective licensees- they have their own patients to treat. Then here's the costs of the infrastructure needed in those additional spaces in which to test the applicants, which need manual tools, dental chairs, water, sanitization, x-rays, etc.

Furthermore, unlike the anonymous standrdized tests, anyone can be failed at any time during the practical. You will not be told why you got the tap on the shoulder. It could be because you were incompetent. It could be because they know you're from out of state. It could be because the examiner is a racist or he knows you dated his cousin. You'll never know. Which means, as you sit out a year for the next test date, you won't know what areas you need to study more of in order to pass...or if you shouldn't even bother.

The tests aren't perfect, no. But they do help.
 
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Unfortunately, US teachers are usually people that have never been outside the education system (other than a mall clerk during uni). Our youth have little chance to learn from someone with practical experience until college.

And even then ... my engineering undergraduate and graduate school professors were about evenly split between those with some prior corporate/government experience and those whose entire careers had been spent in academia. Same was true of my fellow student at the graduate level -- about half like me returning to school with the other half having gone directly to grad school after completing undergrad. There was a perceptible difference between the approaches of the two sets of professors and between the world views of the two sets of students.
 

I was gonna say me neither, but then someone posted the picture of cheeze whiz. I had actually forgotten that's a thing. Perhaps for a good reason.

Also: Cheese whiz isn't cheese.

I'm telling you, people are dumb. Especially tourist. Especially American tourist. I saw some tourist from Ohio get heir car towed for not paying the valet and parking fee. They decided they would park in a private parking lot that required you pay. They got upset when the tow-truck hooked up their car. Their excuse was that they were from Ohio, and they don't pay people to park their car. I'm pretty sure they paid far more than the parking fee when they went to get their car released.

That's odd. I mean, we have pay lots and valet parking in Ohio, too.
 

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