D&D 5E Cantrips as Rituals

[Sadrik]

This was an idea I floated way back but I wanted to bring it forward and in its own thread. So the idea is that cantrips could be a ritual of sorts of other spell levels. The reason you would want to do this is for several reasons.
1. You bring the cantrip subsystem into the spell system and don't have an exception to spells called cantrips.
2. They would scale more naturally like all spells.
3. This could be used for more powerful spells too.
4. More variety of cantrip-like effects

Let me explain, when I say a spell could be used as a ritual I am talking about essentially casting a spell and not losing it from memory. The +10 Minute casting time would not be applicable in this case.

Example:
Magic Missile is a 1st level spell
It shoots 3 missiles and uses the spell slot.
A ritual version could shoot 1 missile and not use the spell slot.
Then in both cases, if you cast it with a higher spell slot you add +1 missile.

So the idea here is to cast spells without expending the slot with a more minor effect. It could reduce duration, number of dice of damage, area of effect etc.

For those that are not interested in unlimited magic effects each day (count me as one of their number) you could say you can only cast a number of them each day equal to your spellcasting stat or modifier or some other number similar to the spell slot chart (5).

0-level spells did not exist until 1e UA. This essentially would make all cantrips into level 1 spells again and perhaps beef up some of them and give a minor ritual effect similar to what they had before.

This really could not be a module it would have to be written into each spell description, so it is not something that could get tacked on unfortunately. But I really like this idea conceptually!

 

[Li Shenron]

So the idea here is to cast spells without expending the slot with a more minor effect. It could reduce duration, number of dice of damage, area of effect etc.

I don't see any problem. This could have been a perfectly valid idea for cantrips.

Basically some 1st lv spells would have a line saying "Cantrip: effect X reduced to ...". E.g. Burning Hands might affect only 1 target.

Some spells could have both a cantrip and a ritual version.

 

[Johnny Champion]

Cantrips do cause some issues from my point of view. They seem to only be useful for low level spell-casters, in which they used in almost every round of combat, then they slowly disappear from use, never to be used again as levels increase. Unlimited availability, used often at low levels, never used at high levels and I assume limited selection (which we will see soon) are all minor issues I have.

I was planning on limiting their use in the playtest but decided it was too late to change; players relied on them. I like your thoughts but I assume Cantrips are too deeply embedded in the system now and it may be difficult to apply your ritual version, or other house-rule, to the multitude of spells.

 

[Sadrik]

I don't see any problem. This could have been a perfectly valid idea for cantrips.

Basically some 1st lv spells would have a line saying "Cantrip: effect X reduced to ...". E.g. Burning Hands might affect only 1 target.

Some spells could have both a cantrip and a ritual version.

The scaling is already handled in the spell too because you are automatically always using your highest free spell slot. So you would not have to have any spells that auto-scale, including cantrips.

Cantrips do cause some issues from my point of view. They seem to only be useful for low level spell-casters, in which they used in almost every round of combat, then they slowly disappear from use, never to be used again as levels increase. Unlimited availability, used often at low levels, never used at high levels and I assume limited selection (which we will see soon) are all minor issues I have.

I was planning on limiting their use in the playtest but decided it was too late to change; players relied on them. I like your thoughts but I assume Cantrips are too deeply embedded in the system now and it may be difficult to apply your ritual version, or other house-rule, to the multitude of spells.

Yeah, it is too bad that something could not be added into the system but the date is late and the nature of something like this would require writing them into the spell descriptions and I don't think we will see a module with such a system. So alas a nonstarter. I can always write up house rules though.

 

[Gadget]

I think the concerns about cantrips expressed above mainly apply to combat type cantrips: very useful at low levels, not so much as the user level increases. I view cantrips as something that a high level wizard has to seem...well like a high level wizard. He just waves his hand and the fire is started, his pipe is lit and the room is swept, etc.

I think the problem with the original post, if I understand correctly, will be to come up with a balanced system to 'catripize' spells. It seems that it would be easy to find abuses for spells that are made into cantrips, even with reduced effects.

 

[Dausuul]

My wizard was still using cantrips regularly, both attack and utility, at 10th level. Maybe this would have changed if the campaign had continued into the teens, but looking at the spell chart--there are only 4 spell slots' difference between 10th level and 20th--I doubt it. Even Spell Mastery wouldn't have put me off cantrips. At 18th level, ray of frost is better average damage than magic missile. I'd have used my Spell Mastery options for utility magic like disguise self and levitate.

Wizards past the very low levels don't get nearly the spell slots they did in 3E, less even than AD&D. Cantrips or some equivalent are extremely valuable.

But I think this idea wouldn't be hard to implement. All you have to do is say that if you have spell X prepared and at least one slot of high enough level to cast it, you get cantrip Y. Then make a list matching up spells to cantrips. For example:

Sleet storm, ice storm, and cone of cold grant ray of frost.
False life, animate dead, and finger of death grant chill touch.
Color spray, phantasmal force, and major image grant minor image.

Et cetera.

 

[Mistwell]

Cantrips do cause some issues from my point of view. They seem to only be useful for low level spell-casters, in which they used in almost every round of combat,

I've been playtesting for nearly a year, on a weekly basis, and this has never happened for even a single play session.

Is it something that happened a lot in your playtesting?

 

[Li Shenron]

I've been playtesting for nearly a year, on a weekly basis, and this has never happened for even a single play session.

Is it something that happened a lot in your playtesting?

Unfortunately I have been playtesting only at very low level, but I did see it happen, what [MENTION=6761886]Johnny Champion[/MENTION] says: cantrips get used almost every round of combat (at low levels).

In a sense, that could simply mean that cantrips work as intended. But that means the whole thing becomes a playstyle issue: do you want to see 1st level spellcasters shoot magic at will? Some people love it, some people hate it, some don't bother, but it's a personal issue.

Personally I hate the fact that there is no choice.

 

[Mistwell]

Personally I hate the fact that there is no choice.

No choice? Why not just choose non-combat cantrips? I mean, we've already settled that a crossbow is actually a better choice than Ray of Frost at first level?

 

[Li Shenron]

No choice? Why not just choose non-combat cantrips? I mean, we've already settled that a crossbow is actually a better choice than Ray of Frost at first level?

Because the issue is with cantrips at will, not combat cantrips at will.

And just to make sure, the issue is in general with every spellcaster having spells at will, the power of which is irrelevant, because I don't have a problem with balance but with world-building consequences.

In fact, I think I was one of the few on these boards 10 years ago (3e era) in favor of feats which granted one spell at will. But a feat is still something only some characters have, and that is an option. Then became the badwrongfun era, and pretty much everyone changed opinion and now wouldn't play a game that doesn't have cantrips at will. So now there is no option for not having spells at will. The only option left is DM's fiat that NPC don't have it.