D&D 5E Cantrips as Rituals

[Mistwell]

Because the issue is with cantrips at will, not combat cantrips at will.

And just to make sure, the issue is in general with every spellcaster having spells at will, the power of which is irrelevant, because I don't have a problem with balance but with world-building consequences.

In fact, I think I was one of the few on these boards 10 years ago (3e era) in favor of feats which granted one spell at will. But a feat is still something only some characters have, and that is an option. Then became the badwrongfun era, and pretty much everyone changed opinion and now wouldn't play a game that doesn't have cantrips at will. So now there is no option for not having spells at will. The only option left is DM's fiat that NPC don't have it.

Ah, that's a different issue. A simple limit of "you can only use a given cantrip [Caster Stat Bonus] times a day" solves it. But the world-building issue isn't really an issue, as you cannot cast a continual light with it, the concentration mechanic gets in the way of some, and the damaging ones have the same issue as mundane attacks which can attack all day. I am not seeing the world-building issue.

 

[Dausuul]

Ah, that's a different issue. A simple limit of "you can only use a given trap [Caster Stat Bonus] times a day" solves it. But the world-building issue isn't really an issue, as you cannot cast a continual light with it, the concentration mechanic gets in the way of some, and the damaging ones have the same issue as mundane attacks which can attack all day. I am not seeing the world-building issue.

Indeed, when you look at the actual cantrips in the playtest, I can't see any which pose a threat to worldbuilding. Mending is the only one where unlimited use has a significant impact, and even that isn't much: You can fix stuff that gets broken. Yay. Having a wizard with mending and prestidigitation would be a boon to any peasant village, since between them they would greatly extend the durability of household goods. But neither spell can roll back time, and eventually things will get so worn and threadbare that they will have to be replaced anyway. You don't want to be running to the wizard every five minutes because your 300-year-old shirt disintegrated again.

The other cantrips are just handy tools and weapons for the wizard's personal use. Unless your world is crawling with wizards, they won't have a major impact.

The real world-building problems lie, as they have always lain, with clerical magic--not orisons, but spells like cure wounds and raise dead. 5E may or may not address those problems, but it certainly did not introduce them.

 

[Sadrik]

I see a major world building issue. Magic at-will affects the 1e/2e/3e/pf feel of games. Typically in those games for you to get at-will magic you needed to invest in a wand, a 3e class feature (warlock/arch-mage), or a 3e feat (reserve feats). The idea is that as you level you get wands to do much of your combat for you. 4e kind of broke that feel. Those who are very familiar with the 4e feel are going to want the at-will spells to keep the feel they know and perhaps enjoy. The same goes for 1e/2e/3e/pf gamers. So there is a conflict here in styles and feel. To me that equates to making it an option.

 

[Dausuul]

I see a major world building issue. Magic at-will affects the 1e/2e/3e/pf feel of games. Typically in those games for you to get at-will magic you needed to invest in a wand, a 3e class feature (warlock/arch-mage), or a 3e feat (reserve feats). The idea is that as you level you get wands to do much of your combat for you. 4e kind of broke that feel. Those who are very familiar with the 4e feel are going to want the at-will spells to keep the feel they know and perhaps enjoy. The same goes for 1e/2e/3e/pf gamers. So there is a conflict here in styles and feel. To me that equates to making it an option.

That is a style issue, not a world-building one.

 

[Sadrik]

That is a style issue, not a world-building one.

Agreed, I now understand the difference.

 

[Johnny Champion]

I've been playtesting for nearly a year, on a weekly basis, and this has never happened for even a single play session.

Is it something that happened a lot in your playtesting?

For us, this is mainly the case with clerics. Sacred Flame was used so frequently in some sessions that I planned on removing it from the cantrip list. I thought it allowed the cleric to give up on melee and become a ranged attacker since there was no restriction on its use. Our campaigns in Next have only reached 9th level and though cantrips scaled up at 5th level, their use declined substantially due to more effective/powerful spells.

Mage's Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp at least have 5' restriction.

 

[Mistwell]

For us, this is mainly the case with clerics. Sacred Flame was used so frequently in some sessions that I planned on removing it from the cantrip list. I thought it allowed the cleric to give up on melee and become a ranged attacker since there was no restriction on its use. Our campaigns in Next have only reached 9th level and though cantrips scaled up at 5th level, their use declined substantially due to more effective/powerful spells.

Mage's Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp at least have 5' restriction.

Huh. Given they are trained in all simple weapons, seems like your cleric would get just as much out of a shortbow, javelin, or light crossbow. I am not seeing how the 1d8 (no bonus from stats) vs. Dex save is any better or worse than those simple weapons. Sure, it goes around cover (which is nice), it's radiant damage (so harms undead better), and Dex might be a low stat for some creatures, but it also takes up that precious cantrip slot, and unlike the Wizard they don't get to learn more cantrips from scrolls later (I don't think?). I would think any of Guidance, Resistance, Light, and Spare the Dying will have more utility over the course of the Cleric's adventuring career.

 

[Johnny Champion]

Huh. Given they are trained in all simple weapons, seems like your cleric would get just as much out of a shortbow, javelin, or light crossbow. I am not seeing how the 1d8 (no bonus from stats) vs. Dex save is any better or worse than those simple weapons. Sure, it goes around cover (which is nice), it's radiant damage (so harms undead better), and Dex might be a low stat for some creatures, but it also takes up that precious cantrip slot, and unlike the Wizard they don't get to learn more cantrips from scrolls later (I don't think?). I would think any of Guidance, Resistance, Light, and Spare the Dying will have more utility over the course of the Cleric's adventuring career.

As an old school DM attempting to integrate D&D Next, I still maintain an aversion to clerics with sharp objects, like javelins, arrows and bolts! And a charging cleric swinging a mace, giving his all to melee is something that a DM like me enjoys. All kidding aside, at least javelins, arrows and bolts all have a limited supply (at least in my sessions), they sometimes miss and can even hit an unsuspecting friend, and high ACs make them ineffectual compared to Sacred Flame.