Pathfinder 1E Fitting the daemons from Book of Fiends into the Pathfinder/Golarion cosmology?

[VelvetViolet]

In the default Pathfinder cosmology, daemons are neutral evil fiends that represent death. Whereas in 3.5 the words demon, devil, and daemon were merely generic terms for any fiends of CE, LE, and NE alignment, respectively, in Pathfinder the terms demon, devil and daemon refer exclusively to specific races of fiends. The kyton, for example, is no longer referred to as a devil since that term is no longer a generic word for lawful evil fiends.

If I attempted to include the daemons from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends into the Pathfinder cosmology, what adjustments would I need to make without changing them into the canonical daemons? The BoF daemons are purveyors of sin who serve evil as a cause in and of itself and live on their own plane of Gehenna, which consists of seven circles for even of the seven sins, which act as the foundation of the different varieties of daemon. I can't call them daemons because that name is already taken and it would be confusing, and Gehenna is listed as an alternate name for Abaddon in the Gamemastery Guide so I can't use that either.

So I think I'll call them Anathemas. Their home plane becomes Mount Dystopia, an upside-down mountain divided into seven terraces that each represent one of the seven sins in order from worst to least: Pride, Envy, Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony and Lust. Mount Dystopia is located on the underside of Abaddon. I define their background thus: they are the neutral evil counterpart to the Qlippoth, predating the daemons and going all the way back to the first evil in the multiverse. Mount Dystopia's terraces are ruled by seven Exarchs that represent each sin: Stolsünden (Exarch of Pride), Neisünden (Exarch of Envy), Zornsünden (Exarch of Wrath), Fausünden (Exarch of Sloth), Habsünden (Exarch of Greed), Nahrusünden (Exarch of Gluttony), and Brusünden (Exarch of Lust). The names are in broken German.

Thoughts?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Daemons are not opposed to confusing the issue (heck, their name is pronounced the same as "demons," which is plenty confusing). I don't think it's necessary to create a new taxonomy, or at least one the players can confirm.

That said, if you don't want to call them "yugoloths," I think "anathemas" is a pretty good name.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Daemons are not opposed to confusing the issue (heck, their name is pronounced the same as "demons," which is plenty confusing). I don't think it's necessary to create a new taxonomy, or at least one the players can confirm.

That said, if you don't want to call them "yugoloths," I think "anathemas" is a pretty good name.

I always thought the word "daemon" was too close to "demon," since they are pretty much the same word etymologically. But that's 1st edition D&D for you. Yugoloth, however, is trademarked, and the daemons in the BoF have "mercenary" only as a fraction of their total portfolio (the Company are pretty much an Easter egg reference to the Yugoloth lower castes, being insectile mercenaries).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I always thought the word "daemon" was too close to "demon," since they are pretty much the same word etymologically. But that's 1st edition D&D for you. Yugoloth, however, is trademarked, and the daemons in the BoF have "mercenary" only as a fraction of their total portfolio (the Company are pretty much an Easter egg reference to the Yugoloth lower castes, being insectile mercenaries).

Are you selling a product? Trademark shouldn't matter for a home game. Still, "anathema" is good, as I said.

 

[Lwaxy]

In my books demons are the chaotic evil adversaries of the lawful evil devils. A devil would rather side with an angel than a demon.

I kept the same view for Golarion. LE equals devil, CE equals demon. Simple

And the names you have come up with aren't broken German. It's butchered!

 

[Shemeska]

In the default Pathfinder cosmology, daemons are neutral evil fiends that represent death. Whereas in 3.5 the words demon, devil, and daemon were merely generic terms for any fiends of CE, LE, and NE alignment, respectively, in Pathfinder the terms demon, devil and daemon refer exclusively to specific races of fiends. The kyton, for example, is no longer referred to as a devil since that term is no longer a generic word for lawful evil fiends.

If I attempted to include the daemons from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends into the Pathfinder cosmology, what adjustments would I need to make without changing them into the canonical daemons? The BoF daemons are purveyors of sin who serve evil as a cause in and of itself and live on their own plane of Gehenna, which consists of seven circles for even of the seven sins, which act as the foundation of the different varieties of daemon. I can't call them daemons because that name is already taken and it would be confusing, and Gehenna is listed as an alternate name for Abaddon in the Gamemastery Guide so I can't use that either.

So I think I'll call them Anathemas. Their home plane becomes Mount Dystopia, an upside-down mountain divided into seven terraces that each represent one of the seven sins in order from worst to least: Pride, Envy, Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony and Lust. Mount Dystopia is located on the underside of Abaddon. I define their background thus: they are the neutral evil counterpart to the Qlippoth, predating the daemons and going all the way back to the first evil in the multiverse. Mount Dystopia's terraces are ruled by seven Exarchs that represent each sin: Stolsünden (Exarch of Pride), Neisünden (Exarch of Envy), Zornsünden (Exarch of Wrath), Fausünden (Exarch of Sloth), Habsünden (Exarch of Greed), Nahrusünden (Exarch of Gluttony), and Brusünden (Exarch of Lust). The names are in broken German.

Thoughts?

I'm not super familiar with the BoF daemons since I don't own a copy myself, but I did read through it a few years back, but I do know a bit about Pathfinder daemons since I wrote the book on them (Book of the Damned 3: Horsemen of the Apocalypse).

As for the question: It's a bit complex, since in Pathfinder/Golarion, demons are the CE representations of mortal sin. The BoF daemons outside of name don't immediately mesh with the PF daemons who themselves represent death/oblivion of the soul.

In Golarion, the demons were the result of one or more of the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse tinkering with mortal soulstuff and either seeding it into the Abyss or abandoning it there. The experiment radically exceeded their own capacity to have any control over it, and the demons ultimately conquered the Abyss and displaced the original Abyssal natives the Qlippoth. The Qlippoth are rightly pissed about this, and the daemons of Abaddon got a raw deal themselves when eventually Lamashtu invaded Abaddon.

Personally I'd place the BoF daemons as a subtype of demons, perhaps a divergent offshoot of the first demons created by the Four, or possibly a second attempt after the beautiful success/miserable failure of the first. I'm also either give them an Abyssal layer of their own (or associated cluster of Abyssal layers), or simply include their own unique plane added into the Pathfinder cosmology drifting in the Maelstrom (since new planes have and certainly could still in the future solidify out of the Maelstrom's ever-changing chaos like the other planes have)

 

[VelvetViolet]

I'm not super familiar with the BoF daemons since I don't own a copy myself, but I did read through it a few years back, but I do know a bit about Pathfinder daemons since I wrote the book on them (Book of the Damned 3: Horsemen of the Apocalypse).

As for the question: It's a bit complex, since in Pathfinder/Golarion, demons are the CE representations of mortal sin. The BoF daemons outside of name don't immediately mesh with the PF daemons who themselves represent death/oblivion of the soul.

I don't see this as a problem. The anathemas and daemons are two sides of the same coin: eros and thanatos, libido and destrudo, creation and destruction, life and death. The anathemas were born of the first evil life, while the daemons were born of the first evil death. The demons and devils dilute that pure evil with chaos and order. The anathemas adore a life of evil while the daemons destroy that life. I suppose they don't like each other much.

 

[Voadam]

In Legacy of Fire 1 Howl of the Carrion King there is a Book of Fiends Daemon. It is a unique advanced Glomeray daemon who is a servitor of Szuriel the Horseman of War. So canonically you've got at least one in Golarion cosmology.

 

[Shemeska]

In Legacy of Fire 1 Howl of the Carrion King there is a Book of Fiends Daemon. It is a unique advanced Glomeray daemon who is a servitor of Szuriel the Horseman of War. So canonically you've got at least one in Golarion cosmology.

I'm aware. I think what's most important is the line of text there calling him out as a unique servitor of the Angel of Desolation; in my view of it, he's using the statblock of an OGL BoF daemon, but not the fluff that went along with the original. IMO.