Pathfinder 1E Reigning in casters

[Evenglare]

Alright, so it's no secret that 3.x casters can be pretty powerful with all their spells at their disposal. To fix this issue I am of the mindset that DMs just ban or at least restrict spells much in the same way that the GM restricts races and classes etc etc for their campaign. This usually solves about 99% of the arguments I have seen on the internet. Anyway, that is an easy solution, but I have been thinking about a solution that wouldn't require spell restriction. The problem I see with OP spells is that most if not all of them you can just cast in a round. So my proposal is this, make the level of spells take that many standard actions to cast. Going to cast fireball? It's going to take you 3 rounds, better hope your fighters will cover you.

It's a great way to implement concentration checks as well, I'm not sure about other groups but in my group concentration comes up pretty rarely, this would remedy that aspect of the game. course this poses some problems mainly the high level spells 5-9 or there about. If a wizard has access to 9th level spell he probably isn't going to want to wait 9 rounds while casting the spell, especially since at this point you go up against some pretty nasty monsters. So I think we would need a cap limit or something maybe 4 rounds is a ceiling. When you get to 5th level perhaps the lower level spells can be shifted down one action (but can not reach 0). This way your 5th level spell costs 4 turns, your 4th level spell requires 3 turns, etc etc.

So has anyone ever tried this? It seems to work in games like final fantasy tactics. Even though the caster might get bored waiting for his turn, he can do some really powerful things as a payoff. Of course the first response would be that a player should never be bored at the table, I agree with this, and I am aware this system wouldn't be ideal for everyone. But it would bring a new sense of purpose for melee characters to protect their caster while the spell is being summoned. Eh, just rambling now...

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

I haven't tried it, but if your group is willing, you should see how it stands up in actual play and report back. You might consider something like this first though just to see if you are on the right path.

1st and 2nd level spells - 1 round.
3rd through 5th level spells - 2 rounds.
6th through 8th level spells - 3 rounds.
9th level spells - 4 rounds.

 

[Dragonsbane]

I have run many games and done many many nerfs. That one sounds like a nerf that will cause everyone to play non-casters or just multi-class casters that never get to high level spells. Not ot mention, are you as a DM gonna take 4 rounds to cast a villian's 9th level spell? :O

Perhaps other options, such as:
- put more casters and monsters with spell-like abilities as enemies
- give melee types things like potions and ways to resist magic a little more
- make high level spells sometimes go crazy - instead of a super long casting time, how about a Concentration check for spells that are high level. You could even allow Combat casting feat to apply to said check, eating up a player feat in the process
- raise spell levels, ie in my campaign Teleport is 7th level, Two/Error is 8th, Plane Shift is 8th, and so on. Although I don't anymore, a few more spells were raised, such as Stoneskin and Fly. Don't remove, just raise their level.

Although I am usually DM, when I do play I always play casters, and I would never play one to high-level with that particular nerf.

Just my 2 cents. Perhaps check with your group on that one though, unless you play on Roll20 where players are dying to get in games.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

but I have been thinking about a solution that wouldn't require spell restriction. The problem I see with OP spells is that most if not all of them you can just cast in a round.

I disagree with this one right here. The Scry/Buff/'Port combo can take a long time, as scrying is a spell with a long casting time. A lot of broken spells, such as Simulacrum, take a long time to cast.

Also, the Fireball example... that's not a powerful spell in 3e. Why would you want to nerf a spell like that? And finally, this nerfs wizards in the level 3-6 or so range when they're not generally regarded as overpowered.

So my proposal is this, make the level of spells take that many standard actions to cast. Going to cast fireball? It's going to take you 3 rounds, better hope your fighters will cover you.

So has anyone ever tried this? It seems to work in games like final fantasy tactics. Even though the caster might get bored waiting for his turn, he can do some really powerful things as a payoff.

I know Final Fantasy Tactics had that, but FFT is a single-player game. Many characters, but one player. A bored player of a mage is bad for the game.

 

[N'raac]

This seems to encourage spells that are cast out of combat. Long-term buffs, for example, come into their own. Some spells just disappear - who needs a Feather Fall that takes a round to cast, or a four round Dimension Door when I can walk there in that time? Overland Flight or Longstrider, on the other hand - still quite useful.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Wouldn't bother me at all to do things this way. Probably would make casters vanishingly rare, but depending on your perspective that may be a plus.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A round is a LONG time to go without having an action.

To get a similar feel, without such a big nerf, you might consider this:

Charge Time
Spells have a charge time equal to their level. When you choose to cast a spell on your turn, your turn ends, and you begin concentrating. Subtract the spell's Charge Time from your current Initiative to determine the Spell Initiative. On the Spell Initiative, casting ends and the spell takes effect. From the end of your turn, until the Spell Initiative, you are considered Concentrating, and any damage you take may disrupt your spellcasting.​

So you can still cast a spell on your turn, but if you want to cast a 9th level spell, you're going to be subject to a lot of attacks before you get it off, unless you've got some insane initaitive roll. You can double the CT (2xLV) if it doesn't seem to be enough of a penalty.

 

[billd91]

One round per spell level is probably way too harsh. Consider, instead, making more spells be 1 round casting times - particularly anything with a save or die/defeat mechanic. Then get rid of concentration checks to keep the spell when damaged.

 

[Kinak]

Honestly, I think increasing casting times might make casters more disruptive.

Casters' utility and buff spells often cause more problems than their in-combat spells. The higher casting times get, the more out-of-combat spells they'll end up memorizing.

Making casting a full-round action for some (or all) spells as [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] said helps reinforce class roles if nothing else. It cripples solitary casters in combat, which is sort of the point, but can cause some problems with caster bosses.

Honestly, though, it's often just a question of squeezing more encounters into one rest-cycle. In a campaign where a night of downtime isn't threatening, consider having spell preparation take a full day, a week, a month, or even a season.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Storminator]

Heh. The typo in this thread title is fantastic.

PS