Pathfinder 1E Reigning in casters

I play a lot of mages and I have dealt with the make spells take longer than the RAW and for the most part it made me and the rest of the party crazy. Take fireball a lot can happen in three rounds the combat can end, situations change making casting fireball not a good idea. Do you have any idea how frustrating for the player that becomes? I eventually refused to take any combat spells and only took utility spells and in combat I hid until the battle was over. Eventually the rest of the party was like can we have our wizard back.

I have seen so many fixes and lot of them sound good until you get into play and then you find they make playing the wizard a chore. Take going back to if a wizard gets hit even for one point they lose the spell. basically you are saying that a master of spells can't cast if he gets hit with a small stone. If this is an issue raise the DC to save. Though I have lost a lot of spells even with high ranks in concentration.

Another fix is to cap damage spells one problem is wizards not only get higher level spells their low level spells level up as well. I had one DM require using a metamagic feat to make a spell do more damage. Another made new versions like greater magic missile or greater fireball.

Also as someone else said ban wizards completely that maybe less frustrating for everyone.
 

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To be frank, this is an example of the kind of nerf to spellcasters that doesn't understand why spellcasters are broken in 3.X derived games. If you do this, depending on the group, you are going to get one of two types of behavior:

1) You'll push your group to not play spellcasters at all.
2) You'll push your group to play spellcasters in a way that is even more broken.

Most of the most broken things that spellcasters can do in 3.X don't involve casting in combat. Of those that do, fireball is probably the least important.

What you are going to do is push spellcasters toward the model of buffing themselves and other party members which is far more broken in 3.X than fireball is. In fact, fireball is fair and generally balanced in 3.X. You are still in a 1e mindset if you think fireball has a balance issue. Instead of spellcasters doing easily countered and generally unbroken things like fireball or even (comparitively) finger of death, you'll encourage spellcasters to do scry/teleport/buff/called creatures - which is where the real brokenness lies.

It is quite possible to reign in spellcasters, but you have to know where the real problems lie. I've got no problems with spellcasters currently. If I do develop problems with spellcasters at high level, despite the changes, I have some general ideas what to do about it.

1) Ban spells. You'll need to do this at a somewhat blanket level. Ban everything not in the SRD, for example. Then add in on a case by case basis things that aren't in the SRD but which aren't problimatic, rewritting as necessary. This is far from a complete solution, as there are plenty of broken things in the SRD but it will avoid many of the more broken combinations and enablers you see. In particular, note how many of the 'cleric/druid/wizard has an answer for everything' threads involve spells from splatbooks.
2) Elimenate the Druid: The class can't be salvaged. Replace it with something more balanced, like the GR Shaman, and have the Shaman take the Druid's stuff. If you must retain the Druid, tone down the animal companion and elimenate the feat 'Natural Spell'.
3) Nerf the Cleric: The cleric is a well designed class, but a bit too powerful. In particular, by default the cleric should not know all cleric spells, but should have a list of spells known by level. Additionally, reduce the number of spells the cleric can cast per day by 1 per known spell level, so for example, the cleric starts being able to cast 0+1 1st level spells. The maximum number of spells can still be the same, you just get there more slowly.
4) Nerf Saving throw DC: I do this quite simply. Don't add the spell level of the spell to the DC to resist the spell. This in one stroke greatly reduces the problem of 'save or suck'. Once you start carefully removing any of the broken ways to boost DC of saves unreasonably, you are well on your way.
5a) Fix the brokenness: This is the last and to some extent hardest step. It's so complex, I've broken it into two stages. Fixing the broken stuff, and restoring spotlight to non-casters. To fix the outright brokenness, you have to fix all the following: called creatures, all shapechanging spells, any save or suck whose effect is out of scale, no save and suck spells (3.5 Blasphemy, I'm looking at you), and any spell that offers no conventional counter (forcecage and detect evil, for example, cannot be reasonably defeated either by attacks, skills, or abilities but require either magic or highly specialized class abilities). In general, a good place to start is to look at the 3.0 SRD and compare it to the 3.5 SRD and take the weaker of the two versions of the spell. For example, 3.0 Alter Self is much less broken than 3.5 Alter Self. Another good place to look is the sort of changes between spells in 3e and 1e, notably things like Polymorph Self and Polymorph Other, where balancing conventions in 1e were removed resulting in outright brokenness.
5b) Give No Absolute Skill for Free: Be on the watch for spells that have unquantified effects or which are available to low level casters and replace very high skill with an easily available power. A good example is 'Zone of Truth', which gives you effectively better than +100 Sense Motive. Those spells need to be tied to the skill system, or given small quantified effects, or have their level increased. For example, fly is almost infinitely superior to balance, climb, and jump yet is available at 3rd level in a very unrestricted and ideal form. This suggests fly is too low of level. Invisibility is another candidate. You can replace these idealized forms with weaker versions - winged, low stability, average manueverability flight - or invisibility as a phantasm (effecting only a few targets rather than all observers), when you bump up their level. Any spell that lets you no or do something that would normally require a skill check, should require a skill check. Any spell that grants skill at something should probably not grant more than a temporary +5 or +10 bonus at most. One thing that serves me well is bringing back the 3.0 Scry skill and forcing skill replacement to at least involve a skill check. This ensures that characters without spells arent' inherently worse than those with spells.

Once you do that, balance is largely restored, and certainly will be restored through the traditional D&D 'sweet spot' ending around 13th level or so. To fix the rest, you have to make other changes - many of which don't involve spellcasters.

One word of warning, if you do to this without toning down in some similar way the rest of 3.5 or Pathfinder, you'll end up simply making spellcasters suck. In general, both 3.5 and Pathfinder have tried to deal with balance issues not by meeting in the middle - making spellcasters less powerful and non-spellcasters more powerful - but by simply ramping up the power level.
 
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Most popular fix I see on the Traditional Gaming section of 4chan basically boils down to..

1. Ban Core
2. Replace all casters with their Psionic counterparts
3. Use the Book of 9 Swords for noncasters.
 

I haven't had a lot of trouble with clerics in 3rd because, while I allow clerics the full spell list, that's only the spells in the PH itself. Spells from other sources have to be personally acquired by the character. I use the same general rule for arcanes as well - effectively, don't assume you can have any spell from non-PH without asking first.

But then I've never had a player deliberately trying to redline the system.
 

The catch is, casters are only a problem when they start getting 6th level spells. So things are fibe for 3/5th of the game. Except, casters also really suffer for the first 3 or so levels.
The proposed change by the OP really means casters will be unplayable for 3 levels, weak for 9, and average for 8 levels.

Of course, few fights really last 3-4 rounds unless waves of enemies are involved. So that wizard casting the fireball won't need that spell when it's ready, as the dynamic will have changed.

Really, it's easier to just have spellcasting classes cap out at 10th level. Or do something like D&D5 where spells don't automatically scale up and you have to expend higher level slots to get the same effect.


I did try something similar once. I increased casting times by one step so all spells that took a standard action took 1 round. But any spell with a duration longer than instantaneous also had its duration increased by one step. The idea was to increase use of out-of-combat spells, encouraging preparation and reducing the focus on blasting magic.
The players with spellcasting classes ended up bored, unable to move or really participate. Turns were often wasted because during the round an enemy moved out of range or allies moved into the wrong position.
If I was going to do it again, I'd limit the increased casting times to the highest level spell the class knows. Or allow a couple quick spells for emergencies. Or just not kick in until 4th level spells.
 

Casters still wreck face with most enemies you'd fight at level 1. Color Spray and Sleep are good Save-or-Lose spells for the first few levels, and they can make scrolls to avoid having to rest for a while.(average 70 start gold, level 1 scrolls cost ~12gp to make each and take about 2 hours).

Sleep/Color Spray, plus a scythe for CDG auto-crits=quick level 2.
 

Casters still wreck face with most enemies you'd fight at level 1. Color Spray and Sleep are good Save-or-Lose spells for the first few levels, and they can make scrolls to avoid having to rest for a while.(average 70 start gold, level 1 scrolls cost ~12gp to make each and take about 2 hours).

Sleep/Color Spray, plus a scythe for CDG auto-crits=quick level 2.
Which is *good* but not that much better than the fighter or other melee classes who can also drop enemies in a single hit. It's miss or die. Wizards are straightforward glass cannons.

Just did a level 1 PFS game last Thursday and the first fight started with the perfect colour spray situation. The badguys had 50/50 odds of success and three of the five made the save. My swashbuckler was MVP of that fight taking out three, the cleric dropped one, while the rogue rolled low and dropped none.
And after that fight, none of the monsters were vulnerable to colour spray so the sorceress just used magic missile not doing very much damage at all.
Meanwhile, my swashbuckler got smacked two or three times for damage that would have dropped the sorceress. So I felt far, far tougher.

The problem is wizards get increasingly better than the fighters. That's the quadratic part. It's slow at first then ramps up. So any "fix" for high leveled wizards needs to be focused at the high level range. Any more and you're just nerfing the crap out of the guy.


There's also the Cleric Question. Clerics can also be pretty darn badass, easily eclipsing fighters with time to buff. The casting time fix doesn't really address that for minutes/level buffs (and actually encourages those) but really prohibits the use of healing in combat. Removing the restriction from clerics means they're still more powerful than martials and removing the restriction *just* from healing spells means clerics are forced into the role of healbot even more.
 

For what it's worth, the fix I'm planning for the wizard (probably actually going to be an arcanist) in my next campaign is encouraging them to take invocation spells. Lots and lots of invocation spells and very little else.

I'm a little on the fence about making the resting changes I mentioned up thread too (everyone fully recovers HP, attribute damage, and "daily resources" after a week of down time).

The problem is wizards get increasingly better than the fighters. That's the quadratic part. It's slow at first then ramps up. So any "fix" for high leveled wizards needs to be focused at the high level range. Any more and you're just nerfing the crap out of the guy.
Yeah, low-level wizards aren't really part of the problem. That's part of the reason why, in my opinion, stopping earlier (a la E6/M6) fixes a lot of this.

But if high-level play is going to be a thing, precision changes to high-level balance would be nice. In practice, I think there'd be less pushback against buffing non-casters than reigning in casters, but it's dicey either way.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

I did try something similar once. I increased casting times by one step so all spells that took a standard action took 1 round. But any spell with a duration longer than instantaneous also had its duration increased by one step. The idea was to increase use of out-of-combat spells, encouraging preparation and reducing the focus on blasting magic.
The players with spellcasting classes ended up bored, unable to move or really participate. Turns were often wasted because during the round an enemy moved out of range or allies moved into the wrong position.
If I was going to do it again, I'd limit the increased casting times to the highest level spell the class knows. Or allow a couple quick spells for emergencies. Or just not kick in until 4th level spells.

Casting times in rounds is not necessary. It's a suggested rule in 1e for very low magic campaigns or for removing magic largely from the province of PC's. It isn't necessary for balance, and it isn't the rule 3e removed. What I'd bring back from 1e is the concept of the 'segment'.

In the event the above isn't enough, and I feel pretty sure that it is, in 3e terms basically what I'd do is make the casting time of a spell that was '1 standard action' be spell level + 2 initiative counts. So, suppose a magic user with initiative count 10 casts magic missile. Under this rule, the caster begins casting on initiative count 10 but the spell doesn't go into effect until initiative count 13. Any attack occuring in that time potentially disrupts the spell. If the next round the caster wants to cast fireball, then he starts casting on count 10 but doesn't finish until count 15. And so forth.

The only reason I don't do this already is that segments - while they make the game feel more 'real time' than turn based - make for very fiddly play. I'd probably also need to change how full attack actions interact with the count and play would overall slow down. Until I see poor balance issues, it's not worth the change.
 

But if high-level play is going to be a thing, precision changes to high-level balance would be nice. In practice, I think there'd be less pushback against buffing non-casters than reigning in casters, but it's dicey either way.

Cheers!
Kinak

While there would be less pushback in buffing non-casters up to tier 2 or tier 1, in practice that creates more problems than it solves. You then have to buff the monsters to catch up, and at some point math breaks down and creates a more deginerate game rather than less. High level 3.X is already more than deginerate enough without pushing it to greater problems.

By commonly accepted measurements, such as the 'Brilliant Gameologist' tier system Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are 'Tier 1'. By contrast the fighter is like tier 5. What would be ideal IMO is if the all the classes were about tier 3 and we could back off some of the CR creep where the monsters of a given CR are inflating in power that is seen in 3.5. To do that we have to both buff the non-casters so that the they move up a tier and tone down the casters so that they back off at least a tier. You can see that in my design. The changes to cleric back them down from tier 1 to tier 2. Replacing Druid with Shaman replaces a tier 1 with a tier 2 class.

Where it gets complicated and the reason most solutions fail is that they focus only on changing the structure of the class. You can't move fighter up a tier merely by playing with its class mechanics. You also have to change the world that it lives in. That means changing how feat trees work so that feats at the end of trees tend to scale, or if they have high prerequisites that they are truly powerful. It means concieving fighter feats as not merely addressing more and more damage (until you break them with the ability to one shot things), which was never the fighters problem in the first place, but as answers to real problems like forcecage, DR, compulsions and mind-effecting spells generally, invisible creatures, being grappled by collosal creatures, and so forth. You don't need to have every fighter have an answer for everything (that would be tier 1), but you need to expect every fighter to have answers to many common problems while providing fighters enough feat slots that every answer they decide to take isn't a tax that keeps them from developing their schtick. And it means giving skills real power as active enhancers of class abilities. And it means toning down spells that have no answers except other spells. It means solving the problem that the fighter is only powerful as a target of a spellcasters buffs and without those protections is helpless. You end up with

From the opposite direction, it means fixing spellcasters by fixing spells across the board and not letting additional problem spells into the game.

High level that also means changes in how you treat monsters with more than 20 HD, and in general how you scale up monsters at all. You are aiming to restore the 1e pattern that the higher level you are the more likely you are to pass a save, because the expected consequences of failure are higher instead of the 3e pattern of the higher level you are the more likely you are to fail a save and the greater the consequences of failure.
 
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