Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[billd91]

I just checked back and you're right, I was looking at the wrong table on that page.

That said, hopefully this is above level 1 for the conversation, since at minimum the DC for picking locks is 20.

A level 1 Rogue with 4 ranks in Disable Device and 18 DEX means you still have to roll high to open that door.

Well, technically 1 rank with a +3 bonus for being a class skill...

Even so, that's a +8 on his check - needing a 12+ to open the lock. That's a bit higher than average, but I don't think I'd call it "high". Give him a set of masterwork thieves tools and he only needs a 10 and he can retry it if he fails so he can even take 20. The wizard with a knock spell? Not so much.

 

[billd91]

Why wouldn't you put it on a wand? At 50 charges, that's enough to last through an entire typical campaign(or by the time it does eventually run out, buying or making one is cheap). Besides, DC40 for a lock is still blisteringly high even for Rogues at level 10, so using Knock on a lock like that is still the more favorable option.

What are you going to do? Burn off charge after charge until you roll that caster level check of 20? Is that really efficient? I thought wizards were smart.

 

[Wicht]

This is why I said they prepare general purpose spells that are useful in a wide variety of situations(like Fly, Color Spray, Sleep, etc), then putting the more situational spells, like Knock, on scrolls and wands.

The Wizard flat-out should not be preparing utility spells, unless he knows for a fact he won't have a single encounter, when he has Scribe Scroll from level 1.

Maybe we have different definitions of Utility spells, but I generally think of them as being general purpose spells that are useful in a wide variety of situations. Like Fly.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Even so, that's a +8 on his check - needing a 12+ to open the lock. That's a bit higher than average, but I don't think I'd call it "high". Give him a set of masterwork thieves tools and he only needs a 10 and he can retry it if he fails so he can even take 20. The wizard with a knock spell? Not so much.

That's still a Rogue fully optimized for picking locks failing to pick the easiest of locks 50% of the time(to be fair, the Knock Wizard doesn't fair TOO much better, he only has a +1 to picking the lock with Knock over the Rogue). And in the given example, taking a 20 isn't possible(or taking a 10 for that matter) since the Rogue was picking a lock while a TPK monsters is right around the corner, and you can't take 10/20 when in immediate danger.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Maybe we have different definitions of Utility spells, but I generally think of them as being general purpose spells that are useful in a wide variety of situations. Like Fly.

Fly is one of the utility spells that's worth burning a slot on just because it has that many applications over something specific like Knock.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

What are you going to do? Burn off charge after charge until you roll that caster level check of 20? Is that really efficient? I thought wizards were smart.

If I absolutely have to pick the lock, yes. Ideally I'd rather just summon something to bash it down, or disintegrate the door or something.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

That said, I find it amusing this topic went from "Post your problems with Pathfinder" to nitpicking the problem I posted with Pathfinder(namely, casters being stupidly overpowered) and trying to justify why it's not a problem(at level 1, tellingly no one's tried to justify why a level 8+ caster isn't that good)

 

[billd91]

That's still a Rogue fully optimized for picking locks failing to pick the easiest of locks 50% of the time(to be fair, the Knock Wizard doesn't fair TOO much better, he only has a +1 to picking the lock with Knock over the Rogue). And in the given example, taking a 20 isn't possible(or taking a 10 for that matter) since the Rogue was picking a lock while a TPK monsters is right around the corner, and you can't take 10/20 when in immediate danger.

One skill rank, a good Dex (which affects most of his bread-and-butter skills) and masterwork thieves tools counts as "fully optimized"? I haven't even discussed investing feats into it. Fully optimized could drop the roll needed by another 5 or so.

It's true that he can't take 20 while dealing with a likely TPK - but the issue of efficiency in general adventuring is still an important one. The wizard could craft a 10th level wand and try to open any lock with it, but once he's into DCs of 30 and 40, he's starting to burn off charges at 150 gp a pop. A rogue's investment is a lot cheaper.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

[...]tellingly no one's tried to justify why a level 8+ caster isn't that good.

I'm not convinced that many people play at such ridiculously high levels.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

I'm not convinced that many people play at such ridiculously high levels.

...level 8 is ridiculously high? It hasn't even broken double digits.