Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Dungeonman]

The problem is I have people telling me spellcasters in PATHFINDER aren't stupidly powerful. I play Pathfinder every week and I've read through the SRD numerous times, and I honestly can't imagine how anyone doesn't see it.

And Jester Canuck couldn't imagine how healing surgers were satisfying to his 4E gameplay. And when he gave up, out of frustration or whatever, you practically kicked him when he was already down. Was that on-topic too to kick a recently dead horse? Oh, forget it. None of my business. Argue away....

 

[pickin_grinnin]

As I pointed out earlier, spell components are one of those spellcasting rules people seem to think limits spellcasters in some way when they really don't.

They do when you account for the difficulty in finding them (even to purchase), how quickly they can run out when you're running around outside of cities, the relative scarcity of large cities, the space and weight of some of them, and the cost of purchasing them. If you're in a dungeon or out in the boonies for a couple of weeks there won't be a lot of opportunities for buying new components when you run out, which can happen fairly quickly if you're casting a lot of different spells every day.

Those things are big concerns for spellcasters in my campaigns. Outside of major cities, most towns are not going to have more than the most common of components for sale. The characters may have the money, but not the opportunity to purchase them.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Sorta. The Rogue finishes the lock by the time the creature shows up.

Fair enouhg, though the summon's still around to bash down the next two doors if we move quickly.

So your 10th level wizard has access to Teleport, Fabricate and Passwall all at the same time?

Each example only assumed one each, though the Wizard can have 2 f them due to his natural spell learning(I'd probably take Teleport and Passwall personally.)

And again, you are pulling out three utility spells, which smart wizards don't prepare ahead of time.

Passwall and Fabricate I'll give you, but really, smart Wizards don't prepare Teleport?

 

[EnglishLanguage]

They do when you account for the difficulty in finding them (even to purchase), how quickly they can run out when you're running around outside of cities, the relative scarcity of large cities, the space and weight of some of them, and the cost of purchasing them. If you're in a dungeon or out in the boonies for a couple of weeks there won't be a lot of opportunities for buying new components when you run out, which can happen fairly quickly if you're casting a lot of different spells every day.

Those things are big concerns for spellcasters in my campaigns. Outside of major cities, most towns are not going to have more than the most common of components for sale. The characters may have the money, but not the opportunity to purchase them.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/containers-bags-boxes-more#TOC-Pouch

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.

Components with a specific cost are pretty much the only time it's a real limit.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

The problem is I have people telling me spellcasters in PATHFINDER aren't stupidly powerful. I play Pathfinder every week and I've read through the SRD numerous times, and I honestly can't imagine how anyone doesn't see it.

I'm not saying they aren't overpowered. I don't think they are "stupidly powerful," though. I also think there are ways for a GM to balance that out.

 

[Wicht]

Passwall and Fabricate I'll give you, but really, smart Wizards don't prepare Teleport?

Most wizards I know do (assuming they have access to it, which is not always a given); you'll have to take it up with the guy that said "The Wizard flat-out should not be preparing utility spells, unless he knows for a fact he won't have a single encounter."


Also, don't forget, this wizard already used a 5th level spell to let out the Shoggoth (leaving only one 5th level slot open) and also has slots left unprepared because he was trying to be ready for anything (that's what started all of this anyway). So we know he has at least one 2nd level slot open. Chances are good that he might not have Teleport as the other 5th level spell. Especially as one of his highest spells was utility, I think it likely his other would have been combat oriented.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/containers-bags-boxes-more#TOC-Pouch Components with a specific cost are pretty much the only time it's a real limit.

In my game I make the spellcasters source their own components. As I said before the common ones are easy enough to find, and they might be able to buy them in an all-inclusive pouch. Eventually they will start to run out, though, and restocking them isn't something that will always be easy. They can't just stroll into any little village and buy refills for components that don't have other everyday uses (like salt).

You can design a spellcaster who looks ridiculously powerful on paper. In the course of a normal campaign, though, spell use is limited, and you can't keep protective spells up all the time. A higher level spellcaster may be overpowered, but that doesn't mean (s)he is invulnerable. I tend to find ways to balance things out.

For a GM, one of the quickest ways to lose control of a game (or campaign) in a detailed crunchy system like Pathfinder is to let the rules lead you around by the nose. Given as many official Pathfinder books as there are, a determined player can always work the system. Some classes are more powerful than others, too, at least in stereotypical situations. A good GM knows how to deal with those things to keep the campaign balanced.

 

[Alzrius]

Why wouldn't you put it on a wand? At 50 charges, that's enough to last through an entire typical campaign(or by the time it does eventually run out, buying or making one is cheap).

The last sentence here felt wrong to me, but it took me a while to figure out why: the caster level of scrolls and wands, even the ones that you make, don't scale beyond what their creator's were at the time they were made. If you're using a wand across an entire campaign, then there's a good chance its effectiveness will rapidly decrease as the campaign goes forward. Same for that scroll you made at level 1 that you're now using at level 10.

Besides, DC40 for a lock is still blisteringly high even for Rogues at level 10, so using Knock on a lock like that is still the more favorable option.

It's not the more favorable option. It's caster level + 10 to open the lock. A rogue, by contrast, will likely have 10 ranks in Disable Device, +3 for it being a class skill, +5 for a Dexterity of 20 (which is realistic for a rogue of that level), and +2 from masterwork thieves' tools; that's a +20 bonus, the same as the wizard would have, before finding some of the other myriad ways to pump that skill bonus even higher.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

After taking a small break to think on this, considering it doesn't seem like any of us(myself included) are willing to budge on our viewpoints, so I'm willing to drop, or at least change, the discussion to something else so the rest of the topic isn't just us arguing.

One smaller complaint I have about Pathfinder, that the new splat book helped me notice, is how absurdly situational a number of major things are. For example.

Burn Rider Barbarian- A barbarian class archetype that's focused on being mounted and taking fire damage.

Blackjack Fighter- A Fighter archetype based on around teamwork feats and having more Blackjack Fighters in the party.

Contemplative Monks(Dwarf Only)- Monks who give up Stunning Fist and Dwarf racial traits to have reduced effect against things that specifically target Dwarves.

Siege Gunner- A Gunslinger archetype focused around siege weaponry.

Pure Legion Enforcer- An anti-divinity prestige class that makes it incredibly difficult for divine allies to buff or heal you.

I can't think of too many situations I'd actually use many of these things in.

 

[billd91]

After taking a small break to think on this, considering it doesn't seem like any of us(myself included) are willing to budge on our viewpoints, so I'm willing to drop, or at least change, the discussion to something else so the rest of the topic isn't just us arguing.

One smaller complaint I have about Pathfinder, that the new splat book helped me notice, is how absurdly situational a number of major things are. For example.

Burn Rider Barbarian- A barbarian class archetype that's focused on being mounted and taking fire damage.

Blackjack Fighter- A Fighter archetype based on around teamwork feats and having more Blackjack Fighters in the party.

Contemplative Monks(Dwarf Only)- Monks who give up Stunning Fist and Dwarf racial traits to have reduced effect against things that specifically target Dwarves.

Siege Gunner- A Gunslinger archetype focused around siege weaponry.

Pure Legion Enforcer- An anti-divinity prestige class that makes it incredibly difficult for divine allies to buff or heal you.

I can't think of too many situations I'd actually use many of these things in.

Fortunately, the campaigns people want to play aren't limited by any single person's imagination.
I don't have that particular resource, but knowing what else I know about Golarion, I can make a couple of guesses. A burn rider barbarian might do well in a Shoanti based campaign on the Storval Plateau. A couple of blackjack fighters might have a lot of fun in a campaign set among swashbuckling heroes of Korvosa.

Ultimately, maybe that resource is too specific for your tastes. That's fine. The game can pitch products to whatever segments of the market it wants. I might consider looking into it for the Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign I'll be running when our Skull and Shackles campaign ends since a couple of the options look like they're good fits for the Korvosa region.