Pathfinder 1E a real pathfinder fix thread... PF2e

[Blackbrrd]

Funnily enough, back when 3.0e was developed, the intended purpose of those feat chains was precisely to equalise the power level between classes - what the Wizard got through additional spell levels, the Fighter would get through his feats. Of course, that didn't quite work out, partly because the feats (especially high-level feats) never went far enough, and partly because there is no good way to balance wish with "I can swing a sword really, really well."

Maybe doing feats in a way that more closely resembles spell progression would work? Let's introduce feat levels:
Feat level 0: weapon focus, toughness, skill focus, etc
Feat level 1: power attack, cleave, etc
Feat level 2: Spring attack
Feat level 3: whirlwind attack, greater cleave
Feat level 4: etc...

Every level you progress in a class that doesn't have full spell progression, you progress in the feat level track. (maybe once every three levels?). You can also retrain feats to the better variant when you have access to it.

Full spell casters should probably get even fewer feats than they get today (just like the other classes don't get free access to spells as they level up).

Regarding saves: They should probably all be level/2, but +2 for good saves, +2 for medium saves and -2 for bad saves. Fighters and such should probably get good/medium saves, while Wizards and other full casters should get medium/bad saves.

 

[Minigiant]

One thing they should do is take a DDN route on skills and desperate class from class skills.

Put every skill in a group of 3-5 skills like Athletics (Climb, Jump, Swim, Fly,)

Each class gets to pick 2 groups freely.
Skill based classed get bonus skill groups at level 1.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I feel this is pretty much what Pathfinder already did - you are describing the evolution from 3.5 to Pathfinder. It could do with another iteration, but the end result would only be a little different. Many times when people criticize Pathfinder for being too little, too late, I feel they have not really realized all the little spell changes they did from 3.5, the many spells who had reduced durations.

Most certainly! The general nerf of spells between 3.5 and Pathfinder was a necessary one - especially with the removal of nearly all Save-or-Die spells such that fighters and magicians are speaking the same language again (everyone just deals damage, which is cumulative whether it's from a spell or a sword).

I was more thinking that spells could use an overhaul to make them easier to use. Scaling by level, for example, could be reduced or removed. Does it really make for a more interesting game, when the range of a Fireball increases at each level, or could they save complexity by giving it a fixed maximum? Likewise, the scaling damage of Fireball - such that it does the same damage as Cone of Cold, for a while - effectively means that the wizard had a ton of its best​ spells (in terms of efficacy).

 

[Minigiant]

Funnily enough, back when 3.0e was developed, the intended purpose of those feat chains was precisely to equalise the power level between classes - what the Wizard got through additional spell levels, the Fighter would get through his feats. Of course, that didn't quite work out, partly because the feats (especially high-level feats) never went far enough, and partly because there is no good way to balance wish with "I can swing a sword really, really well."

Exactly
One of the biggest problem was that the Fighter (unless extremely optimized) on any level never had a combination of feats that was more or equally powerful as a combination of buff spells, control spells, or damage spells.

If the power of feats were extended and feat chains reduced it would be less of an issue.

Instead of Weapon Focus being +1 to attack rolls with one weapon it should be Heavy Weapon Style Focus: +1 per 3 level to attack rolls with all two handed nonlight martial weapons (min +1).

This way a fighter can snag Archery Focus, Archery Specialization (+1/level), Heavy Focus, Heavy Spec, and be set for combat in two way with only 4 feats at level 4 for life.

I was more thinking that spells could use an overhaul to make them easier to use. Scaling by level, for example, could be reduced or removed. Does it really make for a more interesting game, when the range of a Fireball increases at each level, or could they save complexity by giving it a fixed maximum? Likewise, the scaling damage of Fireball - such that it does the same damage as Cone of Cold, for a while - effectively means that the wizard had a ton of its best​ spells (in terms of efficacy).

I always had the belief that if spell scaling was tied to feats like most attack/damage weapon boosts come from feats, a lot of the magic problems would lessen. Fireball is 5d6 normal and 10d6 with Evocation specialization. Caster keep their versatility but have to take feats to maintain power.

 

[delericho]

Maybe doing feats in a way that more closely resembles spell progression would work? Let's introduce feat levels:
Feat level 0: weapon focus, toughness, skill focus, etc
Feat level 1: power attack, cleave, etc
Feat level 2: Spring attack
Feat level 3: whirlwind attack, greater cleave
Feat level 4: etc...

Every level you progress in a class that doesn't have full spell progression, you progress in the feat level track.

That's actually a really good idea. Though I'd either make that auto-advancement either a Fighter class feature or (my preference, but probably 'sacred cow' turf) unify all the non-spellcasters into a single class that shares the track (with things like Rage and Sneak Attack fitting on the feat track).

Full spell casters should probably get even fewer feats than they get today (just like the other classes don't get free access to spells as they level up).

Agreed - but see below...

If the power of feats were extended and feat chains reduced it would be less of an issue.

Instead of Weapon Focus being +1 to attack rolls with one weapon it should be Heavy Weapon Style Focus: +1 per 3 level to attack rolls with all two handed nonlight martial weapons (min +1).

I don't like this, because I'd be inclined to go another way with this.

At present, a full spellcaster gains in power "three times over" each (well, most) times he levels up: he gains access to new spell levels, he gains more spells at each level, and all his existing spells gain in power (due to "1d6 per level", and the like).

My inclination, when rebalancing, would be to remove the third of these three from spellcasters, while adding the first two to non-spellcasters. Whereas what you've suggested above is the opposite - adding the third to the non-spellcasters.

And, in fact...

I always had the belief that if spell scaling was tied to feats like most attack/damage weapon boosts come from feats, a lot of the magic problems would lessen. Fireball is 5d6 normal and 10d6 with Evocation specialization. Caster keep their versatility but have to take feats to maintain power.

I really like this.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'd take all the numbers and character abilities and throw them into one pot. Then I'd probably divide that into two sections, one for "nature" (stuff that is inherent to your being) and "nurture" (stuff that you learn). That is to say, you'd have skills (dimensional) and feats (categorical), and then another dimensional and categorical set of properties for everything else. Racial abilities, class abilities, feats, skills, base attack, saves, and supernatural abilities would all fall under the same envelope. Ability scores would stay where they are.

Math: The numbers would progress at the same rate regardless of what benefit they're granting. That rate would probably equate to 1/2 level, or a max of (pre-epic) +10. Furthermore, I would make all of these dimensional commodities tiered; that is to say you can have five ranks in the basic skill, but then you have to take the other five in a specialty of that skill. Martial skill would specialize to a particular weapon or weapon group, fort saves would specialize to a bonus only against poison or magic or something, stealth would specialize to Hide and MS.

Combat: I'd talk to Trailblazer and take its combat reactions to cover active defense (dodging and parrying). I'd add in a new health system (probably along the lines of vp/wp). I'd integrate these things into the character building mechanics. I'd emphasize gridless movement and maybe strip away some implicitly grid-based elements; perhaps make movement and range less specific. I'd also add in more ways of changing movement rates as part of building a character. Combat maneuvers would be built out to emphasize that it isn't necessary to build a character specifically to do them.

Characters: I'd adopt a standard level-based advancement to cover all skills and feats, and a standard non-level-based scheme to cover their inherent equivalents. I'd present classes as suggested builds that spend part of your skill- and feat-based resources, and add in an option for classes or class/race combos to give you essentially a small discount or a few extra benefits (to carry forward the idea of favored class bonuses and rewarding traditional archetypes). I'd add in significant nonlinear advancement (rerolls and taking 10 under pressure, and perhaps more) as a standard element. I would build all characters (player and nonplayer, human and monstrous) from the ground up using the same elements.

Feats: Feats would include traditional feats, class abilities, and part of magic. Feats would rarely or never enable the use of any new abilities (except for supernatural ones), and would not grant flat numerical bonuses to skills (no weapon focus or skill focus). Typical feats would improve access to basic combat or noncombat mechanics; providing combined actions, improving exchange rates (for trade-ins like expertise and power attack), making existing actions easier in terms of time or resources.

Attributes (?): The biological version of feats would include all racial and monstrous abilities and some class abilities as well. Inherent magical abilities would show up here. Flaws and disabilities would show up here.

Skills: Skills would include attack rolls, and would be greater in number than in the existing PF, adding more scope to the knowledge, interaction, and other noncombat areas. Skill points would also be more numerous than the existing game. Class skills would simply be forgotten.

Traits (?): The biological version of skills would include perhaps some skills, saves, and maybe a few neologisms. Again, drawbacks would be presented in this area.

Magic: Magic would be a combination of skills (reflecting caster level in a school/subschool) and feats (reflecting categories of spells). Rigorous prereqs would require characters to make a significant investment to be effective spellcasters, but anyone could try a few basic functions untrained given the opportunity. Strict divine/arcane distinctions would be enforced. The equivalent of spell slots or other recharge mechanics would be grafted on to this structure in a flexible enough way to allow for different approaches. Psionics would be presented similarly and in the first release.

Items: Given the changes above, it would be time to seriously tone down the effect of magic items on "spine numbers". After all the math above runs smoothly, add in some less dramatic magic item effects and make the items rarer and more costly. Make crafting more involved and harder. Add in categories of nonmagical advancement for items to reflect craftsmanship.

***

Given this structure, I'd try to bring most of the content from the existing game forward. The mentality is about taking existing elements and repackaging them in a more standardized way, while occasionally adding depth to some neglected areas.

 

[Blackwarder]

Gather you PF books, a stack of dried wood, twenty liters of gasoline, a fire extinguisher (safety first) and take it from there... Fixed!

Sorry, couldn't resist

Warder

Edit: Whoops forgot matches!

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Using the 5E approach with spells would be a good start. Nothing scales, unless you're willing to use the slot to scale it. Also, concentration rules to avoid buff-stacking. The fact that a 20th level 5E wizard will prepare 21 spells while his Pathfinder cousin will prepare 40 doesn't help either.

After that, move away from feat chains and skill ranks: either you're trained to do something (and your bonus increases with level) or you're not - no distributing lots of tiny little bonuses whenever you level-up.

Finally, remove from the game any ability that's like "you gain a +1 bonus on initiative rolls", or "you gain a +2 bonus against supernatural fear effects", or "you gain a +2 bonus to resist the effects of natural heat". This includes those level 1 perks that are totally optional and everybody totally uses.

 

[billd91]

Second suggestion-Equalize level power between classes. A level 10 Wizard should be about as powerful as a Level 10 Fighter should be about as powerful as a Level 10 Cleric. I don't want them all to be exactly good at the exact same things, but there should never be a tim when one class is made completely redundant simply because a fully better class exists.

Powerful at what? That question needs answering since power in one aspect of a fantasy setting doesn't necessarily lead to power in another.

I don't necessarily agree that classes should not make each other redundant with the right prep and build. Too much niche protection and everyone can only play the 4 core classes in order to cover the traditional challenges. There needs to be more flexibility than that. But, it should tie up resources to work across another class's main jobs so that you can't maximize both. In other words, if the players don't want to have a rogue, someone should be able, alone or in conjunction with other players at the table, to cover the roguish jobs.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Man, this'll teach me to check the forum list before going directly to a thread to post. Anyway, the following fix may too mild for a real system-reboot...or maybe not, given the average PF fan's discomfort with drastic change.

As I mentioned a post or two ago, I like 'innate' bonuses, for both NPCs and PCs. They neatly solve the Xmas tree effect, make NPCs more than pushovers without loading them up with a kingdom's worth of magical gear, and allow DMs to ignore WBL without turning combat into Russian roulette. I've seen variants of what I'm about to suggest that completely replace the Big Six with 'base defense bonuses' and suchlike (such as the 3.0 Unearthed Arcana), but 3.x players seem to love the possibility of say, having a sky-high AC via AC-booster items if they really want to, so the following rules work with all existing items rather than replacing them:

Attack‭ ‬&‭ ‬Damage Enhancement‭:‬‭ ‬At 1st level‭, ‬you gain a‭ +‬1‭ ‬enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls you make with manufactured and natural weapons‭. ‬Every‭ ‬four levels thereafter‭ (‬5th‭, ‬9th‭, ‬13th‭, ‬17th‭), ‬this bonus improves by 1‭.‬
Armor‭ ‬&‭ ‬Shield Enhancement‭:‬‭ ‬At 2nd level‭, ‬any armor and shields you wear gain a‭ +‬1‭ ‬enhancement bonus to AC‭. ‬Every four levels thereafter‭ (‬6th‭, ‬10th‭, ‬14th‭, ‬18th‭), ‬this bonus improves by 1‭.‬
Resistance‭:‬‭ ‬At 3rd level‭, ‬you gain a‭ +‬1‭ ‬resistance bonus to saving throws‭. ‬Every four levels thereafter‭ (‬7th‭, ‬11th‭, ‬15th‭, ‬19th‭), ‬this bonus‭ ‬improves by 1‭.‬
Deflection‭:‬‭ ‬At 3rd level‭, ‬you gain a‭ +‬1‭ ‬deflection bonus to AC‭. ‬Every four levels thereafter‭ (‬7th‭, ‬11th‭, ‬15th‭, ‬19th‭), ‬this bonus improves by 1‭.‬
Natural Armor‭:‬‭ ‬At 4th level‭, ‬you gain a‭ +‬1‭ ‬enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus‭. ‬This bonus stacks with any natural armor bonus you may have‭, ‬but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor‭. ‬Every four levels thereafter‭ (‬8th‭, ‬12th‭, ‬16th‭, ‬20th‭), ‬this bonus improves by 1‭.‬
Ability Enhancement‭:‬‭ ‬At 4th level‭, ‬you gain a‭ +‬2‭ ‬enhancement bonus to an ability score of your choice‭. ‬Every four levels thereafter‭ (‬8th‭, ‬12th‭, ‬16th‭, ‬20th‭), ‬choose an ability that you haven't chosen before‭. ‬The new ability gains a‭ +‬2‭ ‬enhancement bonus‭, ‬and the enhancement bonus of each previously chosen ability improves by 2‭.‬