Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Umbran]

That is to say, 4e is not a valid example for how PF or any other version of D&D would analyze the relative capacities of magical and nonmagical character abilities. Saying "well a 4e rogue can do X and Y without using wizard spells so why should a PF rogue have to pick up a wand to do X" is not accurate or pertinent.

Yep, I agree with you. Your post simply had the content that springboarded best to the point.

It is kind of like looking at American football, and then saying that a soccer player should be able to pick up the ball and run it in for a goal.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Aren't comparable ebcause one is explicitly stated as being magic and the other isn't.

I can absolutely call a Rogue who plays by using scrolls/wands a pretend-Wizard because that's exactly what he is.

Okay, you've posted your problem, so I'll fix it. Rewrite the flavor text for wands so they aren't magical, and change Use Magic Device to "Use Power Surge". Now, the rogue is no longer a pretend wizard. Problem solved!

After that, smart casters in general just auto-win noncombat situations and completely crap all over combat with their save-or-dies and save-or-suck spells.

Uh, okay. No more than smart rogues, fighters, rangers, maguses (?), gunslingers, or any other class you like can accomplish the same thing.

 

[Dungeonman]

It is kind of like looking at American football, and then saying that a soccer player should be able to pick up the ball and run it in for a goal.

I might be getting the metaphors mixed up here, but of all the people participating on this thread, who is telling the soccer player to play football? I could be wrong, but my impression is that they are saying: if you want to play football, then either 1) think of ways that you don't need to kick a ball or 2) we lied, we can't fix it for you as long as soccer is firmly in your mind.

Perhaps the confusion is whether the "fix" must be something in the rules, or the gaming group social contract, or a reframing of wants/desires in the unsatisfied individual, and different people are placing that onus differently.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Okay, you've posted your problem, so I'll fix it. Rewrite the flavor text for wands so they aren't magical, and change Use Magic Device to "Use Power Surge". Now, the rogue is no longer a pretend wizard. Problem solved!

Doesn't solve the problem that the Rogue is reliant on those things...or the fact reflavoring something doesn't make it no longer magical.

Uh, okay. No more than smart rogues, fighters, rangers, maguses (?), gunslingers, or any other class you like can accomplish the same thing.

Responding to "here is the problem" with "WELL IGNORE THE PROBLEM" doesm't really help with..you know, fixing the problem.

The solution is to nerf the hell out of casters and give noncasters some utility(both in and out of combat).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Doesn't solve the problem that the Rogue is reliant on those things...or the fact reflavoring something doesn't make it no longer magical.




The solution is to nerf the hell out of casters and give noncasters some utility(both in and out of combat).

that would make me more willing to play pathfinder

It is kind of like looking at American football, and then saying that a soccer player should be able to pick up the ball and run it in for a goal.

It seems more like going to a sports message board and finding a thread labled post your problems with foot ball and listing them just to be told to go play baseball..

I think that baseball players make too much money and teams can buy wins

Well no sport can have a salary cap

Well football does

Well footbal isn't a real sport if you like player salary caps go watch foot ball nothing from that edition.. Er sport can fix this one...

 

[Ahnehnois]

It seems more like going to a sports message board and finding a thread labled post your problems with foot ball and listing them just to be told to go play baseball.

It sounds like going to a sports message board to post your problems about football and someone threadcraps it with endless diversions about how quarterbacks are "unbalancing".

Doesn't solve the problem that the Rogue is reliant on those things...or the fact reflavoring something doesn't make it no longer magical.

Neither would changing them to healing surges and powers, then. It's essentially the same thing.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Neither would changing them to healing surges and powers, then. It's essentially the same thing.

Healing surges aren't magical unless they're triggered by a magical ability, whereas magic scrolls and magic wands are always magical.

Powers are, once again, only magical if they're explicitly listed as being magical. No Fighter power is, ergo none of them are magical. You can scream until your blue in the face that Fighter powers are magical, but it will never change the fact that they objectively aren't.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It sounds like going to a sports message board to post your problems about football and someone threadcraps it with endless diversions about how quarterbacks are ".

I am not thread capping I am listing my problems

And don't tell me they can't be fixed piazo made a card game that is perfectly balanced between casters and non casters


(Except sorcerers they are a bit underpowered)

 

[billd91]

I am not thread capping I am listing my problems

And don't tell me they can't be fixed piazo made a card game that is perfectly balanced between casters and non casters

You may notice that a substantial part of the balance between the classes in the card game stems from the way a particular character's abilities interact with the locations they choose to go to. Another substantial part comes because each class's resources are subsets of their resources in the full Pathfinder game. In other words, the "hand of the GM" is pretty strong in setting the environment in which the characters are, as you put it, balanced.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Healing surges aren't magical unless they're triggered by a magical ability, whereas magic scrolls and magic wands are always magical.

Powers are, once again, only magical if they're explicitly listed as being magical. No Fighter power is, ergo none of them are magical. You can scream until your blue in the face that Fighter powers are magical, but it will never change the fact that they objectively aren't.

It's a game mechanic describing a fantastical world. There's no "objective" truth to be found. Subjectively, a power has more in common with a spell than a magic item does.

In any case, calling it magic or not is fluff, not mechanics. Mechanically, a 4e rogue is, as noted above, a striker with martial powers. A PF rogue is not. The PF rogue does not exist in a 4e context, and vice versa, so why compare them? If a character with the mechanics of a 4e rogue appeared in PF, it would definitely be magical, and thus not a rogue.