Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Steely Dan]

Mine is as well

Yours is what?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yours is what?

My 4 e phb is packed up in my basement

 

[Ahnehnois]

Um so Cleave and Tide of iron are magical how?

Use Magic Device isn't magical either. It's a skill, not a spell, or spell-like or supernatural ability (that's an objective fact!).

A rogue using the skill to activate a wand of Acid Arrow or a Scroll of Passwall is not using a magical ability any more so than a fighter is when he swings a +1 sword.

There's some kind of argument that's been sketchily constructed to the effect that either:
*a wizard using a Knock spell or scroll to replace the effect of lockpicking is somehow different than a rogue using a scroll of Teleport to bypass the need for a wizard to cast it.
...or
*A flying invisible wizard raining down spells has some incontrovertible dominance over a Stealth-ing rogue flying with a magic item and sneak attacking with some wand.

It's an argument that only holds if you take a large part of the rules and say that they don't count or aren't legitimate. And thus an argument that fails.

 

[Abraxas]

@Steely Dan ... is there any way you or perhaps you, @EnglishLanguage could quote the actual definition of the martial power source?

I'm neither but this is from the compendium

[h=1]Martial[/h]Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Personally, I've seen people demonstrate extraordinary, unbelievable abilities IRL, but I don't claim they're magical.

However, in common usage, the term "magical" can apply to a variety of things that may not even be objectively all that extraordinary. Some people think microwaves are magical. Or sunsets.

 

[Imaro]

I still don't think it's clear in either quote... though I keep wondering why the distinction of "non-traditional" is made as opposed to just stating it isn't magic??

 

[Steely Dan]

My 4 e phb is packed up in my basement

Ah, bummer, well hopefully someone around here has a 4th Ed PHB at hand and will quote the original, relevant text.

 

[CM]

Ah, bummer, well hopefully someone around here has a 4th Ed PHB at hand and will quote the original, relevant text.

Hey guys, it was posted on both page 39 and 40 of this thread.

 

[CM]

I still don't think it's clear in either quote... though I keep wondering why the distinction of "non-traditional" is made as opposed to just stating it isn't magic??

I think "magic in the traditional sense" implies supernatural things going on. Thus, "not magic in the traditional sense" means the opposite.

IMO the martial power source's abilities are extraordinary, but not supernatural. I believe this thread has branched off on this tangent because someone claimed that 4e martials were actually spellcasters, since they had martial exploits, and thus weren't actually a fix to "traditional" martial classes such as the 3e fighter and rogue being boring/outclassed.

You may now continue, I'm bowing out.

 

[Steely Dan]

Hey guys, it was posted on both page 39 and 40 of this thread.

Ah yes, thanks:

Originally Posted by 4e PHB
Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power. Martial powers are called exploits.



Well, there you have it, off to bed now, good night, folks.