Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[herrozerro]

Indeed that might be true. But, personally, I think this is one of those areas in which 4e broke down as a successor to previous editions - it failed to build on some useful foundations of its predecessors. Extraordinary abilities are a great way to describe capabilities that aren't magical yet may break the laws of our own reality in favor of something more literary, cinematic, or legendary. They are precisely the sort of "nice things" that non-magical classes should have as their more potent capabilities.

Instead, we got the martial power source which was not magical "in the traditional sense". I'm not convinced it was a good trade. Too much of the baby went out with the 3e -> 4e bathwater.

Eh, this is all just a semantic debate. Some seem to think it means that martial is magic, others think it means that martial is capable of super effects without magic.

Personally, I think it's more of both. It's open enough to be mundane extraordinary skill or some kind of battle magic.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

if we were talking about 3rd edition or PF we'd just slap an (ex) on it an no one would be complaining.

Not "no one"- despite my preferring 3.X above all other editions, I never liked that EX abilities were considered non-magical precisely because they can break the laws of physics.

Am I the only one? Maybe. But that still is a number >0.

 

[Imaro]

if we were talking about 3rd edition or PF we'd just slap an (ex) on it an no one would be complaining.
[h=3]Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)[/h]Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

Nonmagical? Check.
Requires Training? Check.
Breaks the laws of physics? Check.

Sounds like a non magical extraordinary ability.

Do these exist in 4e? and non-magical is not the same as not magic in the traditional sense... but then I've said this over and over again...

 

[herrozerro]

Do these exist in 4e?

Yes, it's the martial power source

 

[Ahnehnois]

Not "no one"- despite my preferring 3.X above all other editions, I never liked that EX abilities were considered non-magical precisely because they can break the laws of physics.

Most of them don't do that, though. Virtually every nonmagical class ability has that designation. For example, basic PF fighter abilities like bravery and weapon/armor training that are just bonuses to existing commodities that are not Ex abilities.

The issue I have with the Ex designation is it conflates things that are supernatural and things that are not. This being a fantasy game, supernatural things are in play, and it's okay if not all of them fit within the classical descriptions of magic (arcane and divine).

For example, I have no problem with listing psychic abilities as extraordinary, but I don't see that barbarian rage should be. For lack of a better term, it's "ordinary". Anyone can get mad.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Apologies- should have been clearer.

I know that not all Ex abilities break laws of physics. I dislike that any can.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Apologies- should have been clearer.

I know that not all Ex abilities break laws of physics. I dislike that any can.

I get that. I'm simply expressing a viewpoint that is neither quite that nor opposed to it. I don't mind that there are things that can break physical laws and that those are called extraordinary, but I think that they should be split off from all the regular stuff, and shouldn't be a typical part of character advancement. To me, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate for mythic abilities in the PF context. I don't particularly like the idea of a garden-variety character being able to defy physical laws either.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I'll note that the "Martials are magic" crowd has yet to name a single magical ability that martial characters can do.

Level 2 Utility Exploits
Boundless Endurance Fighter Utility 2
You shake off the worst of your wounds.
Daily ✦ Healing, Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain regeneration 2 + your Constitution modifier
when you are bloodied.

There you go.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Level 2 Utility Exploits
Boundless Endurance Fighter Utility 2
You shake off the worst of your wounds.
Daily ✦ Healing, Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain regeneration 2 + your Constitution modifier
when you are bloodied.

There you go.

Bolded the important part. Your flesh isn't stitching itself back together or anything, you're just fighting through it(probably with an adrenaline rush) until you can tend to them later.

As far as the whole hiding in plain sight thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

 

[Campbell]

I think much of the criticism that focuses on details of specific spells and tuning of stats is somewhat misguided because it doesn't really speak to the actual experience of playing the game. Games are all about the decisions we make and their overall impact on how play proceeds. If I'm playing a fighter who has dedicated his entire life to learning the best ways to kill people and other things than during combat the decisions I make as a player should have more impact than the players of characters who are not as focused. It should not be a more satisfying play experience to play a wizard or cleric during combat than a fighter when they have more resources to make meaningful decisions to make outside of combat. Numbers be damned.