D&D 5E Is Anyone Unhappy About Non-LG Paladins?

Are you unhappy about non-LG paladins?

  • No; in fact, it's a major selling point!

    Votes: 98 20.5%
  • No; in fact, it's a minor selling point.

    Votes: 152 31.7%
  • I don't care either way.

    Votes: 115 24.0%
  • Yes; and it's a minor strike against 5e.

    Votes: 78 16.3%
  • Yes; and it's a major strike against 5e!

    Votes: 18 3.8%
  • My paladin uses a Motorola phone.

    Votes: 18 3.8%

I find them to be a problem. A Chaotic X Paladin can never exist. If you're Chaotic then you don't like being restricted by laws, but if you're a paladin you've dedicated yourself to following your gods laws, so you can't be Chaotic. I'm fine with Lawful X, or even Neutral X for Paladins, but Chaotic X Paladin is a Oxymoron.

Only in versions of D&D where those definitions exist.

We know that the 5E alignment system considers characters with chaotic alignments to "act as their conscience directs", "hold their own personal freedoms above all else", or to "act with arbitrary violence." Nothing in there about refusing to follow any rule, law, or authority. No matter what, no questions asked.

"Commandment IV: No matter what, whatever you do, don't follow any rules. Especially this one."
 

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I find them to be a problem. A Chaotic X Paladin can never exist. If you're Chaotic then you don't like being restricted by laws, but if you're a paladin you've dedicated yourself to following your gods laws, so you can't be Chaotic. I'm fine with Lawful X, or even Neutral X for Paladins, but Chaotic X Paladin is a Oxymoron.

The way I see it, paladins are divine champions. Being a paladin doesn't have to be about following a law, it's about devotion to a cause.
 

A paladin is all about following a code, so Lawful anything is good but once you get away from lawful it is just about giving the feats and abilities to every tom, dick and sally. I can see it as a story/campaign elements but does that would not make it a class but a title.
 

The way I see it, paladins are divine champions. Being a paladin doesn't have to be about following a law, it's about devotion to a cause.

But to be devoted to a cause, you are following a set of rules, rules define a cause. You can't have a cause without having a set of rules that tell you how to act to achieve the cause. Rules are another term for Laws.
 

I find them to be a problem. A Chaotic X Paladin can never exist. If you're Chaotic then you don't like being restricted by laws, but if you're a paladin you've dedicated yourself to following your gods laws, so you can't be Chaotic. I'm fine with Lawful X, or even Neutral X for Paladins, but Chaotic X Paladin is a Oxymoron.
*very confused*

Are clerics not also dedicated to their gods' laws?
 

I've always thought the most extreme alignments we were the half/neutral elignments. Lawful good was concerned about the law and good, lawful neutral thought law (and/or order) was most important, not concerned with good or evil. Neutral good was more concerned with the well being and fair treatment of others, and not concerned with law or chaos.

By the way, I am fine with the removal of alignment requirements from the class as a whole if the powers reflect alignment in some way.
 

But to be devoted to a cause, you are following a set of rules, rules define a cause. You can't have a cause without having a set of rules that tell you how to act to achieve the cause. Rules are another term for Laws.
Which is just more reason why they should have stuck with 4e's alignment slider and ditched the grid (really they should ditch the law/chaos axis entirely). What if your god, or even just sect within the church, is all about helping the poor? You're going to clash with society all over the place, entire governments are going to be on your s*** list, and you're not necessarily going to be working out of a play book or a set of rules, even if you are going to be acting pretty consistently.

I dunno, maybe it just gets under my skin because D&D has this weird subtext of glorifying authoritarianism.
 

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But to be devoted to a cause, you are following a set of rules, rules define a cause. You can't have a cause without having a set of rules that tell you how to act to achieve the cause. Rules are another term for Laws.

A cause doesn't have to include rigid rules and regulations. Chaos, as an alignment, encompasses many things, including concepts such as freedom and liberty. A CG paladin might be a champion of liberty that interprets his alignment and mission by fighting to end slavery everywhere he finds it, for example. Sure, you could say that "spread freedom" is a "rule" of his belief system, but there's nothing about that that makes it incompatible with a chaotic alignment.

Chaotic people aren't purely random in what they do. They can still believe in things, have habits, etc. just like everyone else. It's just that, when push comes to shove, they care far more about the spirit of the rules than rules themselves. They follow their hearts, not the dictates of some law. A Lawful paladin looks at things from the perspective of "I'm not allowed to do X; it's my duty to do X, etc." A chaotic paladin would look at things from the perspective of "I believe X is the right thing to do."

If what you were suggesting were true, it wouldn't be possible to have chaotic deities or religions with dogmas, devoted followers, etc, because any chaotic deity would have to be some totally random being that changes its views on a whim all the time. Otherwise, it would be "following a rule" by believing in something. Except, that's not what being Chaotic alignment is; that's insanity.

But in any case, it's all of the arguments over just what alignments mean, and how they lead to purely arbitrary restrictions against valid character concepts, that make me hate them.
 
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But to be devoted to a cause, you are following a set of rules, rules define a cause. You can't have a cause without having a set of rules that tell you how to act to achieve the cause. Rules are another term for Laws.

If the cause is inherently chaotic though, then those rules would be chaotic in nature. For example, spread freedom, as Falling Icicle says. Any populist style cause is going to be inherently chaotic by the D&D definitions of chaotic. Any cause which places the individual ahead of the group is chaotic, again, by the definitions of Law and Chaos in D&D.

A LG paladin would never attempt to overthrow a lawfully constituted government. He might try to overthrow a dictator who had, in turn, overthrown a previous regime, through something like a coup or something similar. A CG paladin would have no problems leading rebellions against oppressive regimes.

IOW, a LG paladin would have little problem with imperial Rome. Imperial Rome is bringing peace and stability to the land. A CG paladin, OTOH, could easily look at the social injustices, such as slavery and cultural imperialism, and decide to lead a revolt against the establishment.

So, the idea that having a code suddenly makes you lawful isn't really valid, I don't think. A barbarian tribe who believes in slaughtering everyone around them, strength of arms, and you can only keep what you can hold, has a code. But, not one I would call lawful in any sense.
 

Given the huge emphasis in 5e on making the game what you want it to be, I don't think this argument holds water. I'm willing to bet that, either in the PH or the DMG, we'll have a sidebar on paladins losing their powers by violating their code in some campaigns. Or maybe it will be in the main text for the class. But I'd bet $5 that it's going to be mentioned in there somewhere.

And really, even if it isn't, this is such a simple thing to keep in your home game that I don't see any problem at all.

Show me the sidebar in the DMG where not murdering defensely kobold children with Divine Smite despite your paladin's vow of Justice prohibiting killing the weak, has a mechanical impact, and we'll talk.

Until then, in 5th ed, one needs to houserule good = good, because otherwise evil = good or whatever else you get away with.

I've seen several selfish murder hobo paladins in Encounters. Having no rule to support your vows is akin to giving players free reign to demand that for RAW-aligned DMs, there is no such thing as good and evil, lawful or chaotic, because even if there were, there is no mechanical repercussion for a paladin acting CE despite having LG on his sheet. There isn't even a way for a DM to alter alignment based on their character's actions. That is totally absurd and ridiculous. Alignment is a mere suggestion, of course, because the designers have decided that morality doesn't actually exist. That's a strong statement and one shared by many intellectuals. If so, why have alignment at all? Why have Oaths if you can violate them willy nilly? Why design a class based on receiving different abilties based on a divine oath or other, when there is zero reason for a character to actually follow that Oath? I could play an Oath of Vengeance paladin, who is un-vengeful in the extreme. Is that good roleplaying? Is ignoring the "flavor text" of 9/10th of the class description a good reason to spend pages and pages and hours and hours designing it?

I submit to you that it's not only unreasonable to have a class based on Oaths without consequences for violating them, but it's completely unreasonable to have any form of alignment mentioned anywhere in the PHB if there is no mechanical support. It is just fluff. I don't need a PHB to tell me what good or evil is, what a lawful character is. If I did, I would want to know why I can pick a class that used to be based on having a certain alignment no longer requires an alignment, and what it means, if anything, to have taken an Oath of Whatever when there is "whatever" shoulder shrug response from the DM when your character is the most selfish and petty at the table. I've seen it quite a bit.

Paladin players are the trolls of D&D. They want those kewl abilities but no penalties for hitting below the belt. They want to swagger in to town as the hero on shining armor after having acquired their celestial mount as a result of murdering a bunch of defenseless captives who had surrendered. This is the kind of game they've created here.

I simply can't play a class that's so ill suited to D&D. You need mechanics for alignment if you build an alignment based class. Perhaps one for each alignment, fine, but there should be an LG paladin who loses his powers if he commits an evil act, in D&D.

I bet they won't even have that in the DMG as an option. It seems we have options for mages to fuel their spells in various ways, but paladins can't actually have their code of ethics be supported by the rules.

I'm not impressed by some munchkin who has a level 9 paladin that he got there by chasing loot and acting cowardly or selfishly. D&D Next is supposed to be supporting parties consisting of characters of various levels within the same group, so if there are two paladins, both LG on paper, and one plays him like a real scum bag, but the other plays him well, I expect one to advance faster than the other.

The only thing I find really surprising is that on a website dedicated to roleplaying, that the idea that good roleplaying would be rewarded in the rules and bad roleplaying penalized, is the least bit controversial. Games have reward conditions for playing them well and fail conditions for playing them badly. A roleplaying game with no rewards or penalties for good/bad roleplaying is simply poorly designed.

The original D&D was exquisitely designed compared to some of this modern stuff. By the time the DMG comes out, I won't be surprised if there's just a sidebar for atonement, or even none, because of all the murder hobo / moral relativism the designers read about on the forums. D&D without alignment is less D&D than it should be, it's missing its heart and soul. Paladin atonement being present or absent, I've noticed is a fair indicator of what type of players will play the game, and as a result, what kind of tables where I will inevitably be seated with greedy paladin murder hobos where the DM can't sanction them directly via their god because they are prohibited by organized play rules to roleplay the paladin's god effectively. The quickest and simplest way for deity to sanction their errant knights is to ex-communicate them, or keep the ever-present threat of ex-communication looming over their every move. In practice, this is how real morality often plays out. And in the end, I don't really care if a paladin acts good because they are inherently good or because they are obeying their deity's dictates, what I care about is that I'm not stuck in a group with a sadistic murderer in shining armor who absurdly gets rewarded with such supernatural and divine abilities like "detect evil" or laying on hands (when the last 5 times it was used was to sustain some kind of evil act or its aftermath).
 
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