Laptops at the table..and recent research showing how bad it is in education..does it carry over to gaming?

[Zhaleskra]

I'm split on technology at the table. Guess it depends on what you're doing with it. At the same time, I like the possibility of a paper-lite environment. Also, since I recently had printer issues, I was actually going to encourage it. At the same time, I prefer that players roll physical dice.

 

[Janx]

I'm split on technology at the table. Guess it depends on what you're doing with it. At the same time, I like the possibility of a paper-lite environment. Also, since I recently had printer issues, I was actually going to encourage it. At the same time, I prefer that players roll physical dice.

for myself, I use a spreadsheet on my iPad to hold my sheet. It's got all my skills, feats and spells hyperlinked to d20SRD.org

I have a tab on the sheet for keeping a running total of HP modifications. So when I get hit for 10 damage, I just click in a new cell and type -10 and press Enter. the Sum() function adds it all up and shows how many HP I have left. very quick and simple.

I still roll real dice. the iPad simply solves the role of character sheet and rule books.

 

[Umbran]

I have a tab on the sheet for keeping a running total of HP modifications. So when I get hit for 10 damage, I just click in a new cell and type -10 and press Enter. the Sum() function adds it all up and shows how many HP I have left. very quick and simple.

Because basic arithmetic is hard, and would not be quick and simple if you did it yourself? We need a computer to do it for us?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Because basic arithmetic is hard, and would not be quick and simple if you did it yourself? We need a computer to do it for us?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but for a lot of people, especially people who have very minor learning issues (but not just them), yeah it absolutely is if they're not focusing on it, like, if they're also talking, RPing, planning, etc.

Even people with 140+ IQs regularly make small arithmetic errors if they are anything less than focused. Subtraction is particularly bad for this.

So maybe less sneering? Very surprised to see it from you. As someone with a much more severe learning disorder, full-on ADHD, myself, who got consistent As in math through high school, it was only by triple or quadruple-checking my work. Whereas with spreadsheets and calculators I rarely make any errors (because of the kind of errors made).

 

[Zhaleskra]

So maybe less sneering? Very surprised to see it from you. As someone with a much more severe learning disorder, full-on ADHD, myself, who got consistent As in math through high school, it was only by triple or quadruple-checking my work. Whereas with spreadsheets and calculators I rarely make any errors (because of the kind of errors made).

Please don't read your emotions into other people's posts as if they were theirs. I've had issues with math too, because I had to suffer with a form of new math called "Semiral" when I was in elementary, and it was detrimental to my math grades until high school. IQ . . . I laugh at IQ. I'm pretty book smart, yet I still score relatively low on IQ tests. Why is that? Because it measures different kinds of intelligence at the same time and compound them into a single two-three digit number. So because I did poorly on certain parts of the test, my overall score is lower. What Umbran is really getting at is the over reliance on technology, and even as a tech lover, I have to agree.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Please don't read your emotions into other people's posts as if they were theirs. I've had issues with math too, because I had to suffer with a form of new math called "Semiral" when I was in elementary, and it was detrimental to my math grades until high school. IQ . . . I laugh at IQ. I'm pretty book smart, yet I still score relatively low on IQ tests. Why is that? Because it measures different kinds of intelligence at the same time and compound them into a single two-three digit number. So because I did poorly on certain parts of the test, my overall score is lower.

IQ supposedly doesn't measure "book smart", so it's unsurprising to score low on it if you're book smart (it tends to measure mental speed/agility and cultural factors). I agree that it's utility is very debatable, but I include lest someone suggest it's mere dimness that is the problem!

What Umbran is really getting at is the over reliance on technology, and even as a tech lover, I have to agree.

I think it's a badly-made point, if so, and this isn't "over-reliance" for many people, it's sensible marshaling of your mental resources. I can do math perfectly by hand, but it'll take me many times as long and require more focus. That's a waste of everyone's time, especially mine. Knowing how to do math is what matters.

 

[Umbran]

Even people with 140+ IQs regularly make small arithmetic errors if they are anything less than focused. Subtraction is particularly bad for this.

People (with 140+ IQs or otherwise) also regularly mistype, don't notice, and then trust the computer anyway. Replacing one type of potential error for another is not a win. I would be unsurprised to find out that errors in typing outstrip errors in basic math for the typical gamer.

As someone with a much more severe learning disorder, full-on ADHD, myself, who got consistent As in math through high school, it was only by triple or quadruple-checking my work. Whereas with spreadsheets and calculators I rarely make any errors (because of the kind of errors made).

And, if it were being presented as a selling point as a solution for those with particular issues, you'd not have heard a peep from me. My brother had cerebral palsy, so I know well the adaptations one may need to make for those with disabilities. So, if you have an honest trouble with the math, then by all means use a machine to do it for you.

But, the presentation I was responding to was not of that form, so please do not assume I'm addressing the specific case, rather than the general.

Computers are great for many things. They can automate difficult tasks, and enable things that humans cannot do otherwise. I am all for using mechanization to solve problems. I am not for using mechanization to solve non-problems, however. Technology is great. Technology for the sake of technology is not great.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

People (with 140+ IQs or otherwise) also regularly mistype, don't notice, and then trust the computer anyway. Replacing one type of potential error for another is not a win. I would be unsurprised to find out that errors in typing outstrip errors in basic math for the typical gamer.

I would be very surprised to find that, myself. Neither of us have any evidence though!

And, if it were being presented as a selling point as a solution for those with particular issues, you'd not have heard a peep from me. My brother had cerebral palsy, so I know well the adaptations one may need to make for those with disabilities. So, if you have an honest trouble with the math, then by all means use a machine to do it for you.

But, the presentation I was responding to was not of that form, so please do not assume I'm addressing the specific case, rather than the general.

Computers are great for many things. They can automate difficult tasks, and enable things that humans cannot do otherwise. I am all for using mechanization to solve problems. I am not for using mechanization to solve non-problems, however. Technology is great. Technology for the sake of technology is not great.

But it's not a non-problem, that's the thing, as I've explained. It may be a non-problem for you, that's great. I play with very smart people in high-end jobs who got As though high-school and university, very smart people however you measure it - some of those people are much better off tracking stuff digitally, where possible - none of them but me have any diagnosed issues, but that's the thing, this assumption that it's a non-problem is just an assumption and a wrong one.

My ADHD wasn't diagnosed until I was 20, treated properly until I was 22. I went through life with people telling me I was being lazy or cheating or whatever using computers and calculators where I could (something my two math-genius friends disagreed with - they always thought it was fine), implying that I was just dumb or not trying hard enough, or whatever, and it was all nonsense.

So when I see other people messing stuff up or wanting to use a digital/automated method to track something, I feel like I know better than to sneer. If they were uneducated, if it was just "I don't know how to do math", I'd want to teach them and help them - that isn't the issue. If you slam the game to a halt and make them focus on the math, yes, they will get right, but how, exactly, does that help? My view is that it does not.

As for the problems from technology, I reject any suggestion that they are to do with automation, spreadsheets, or the like. That flies in the face of my experience using laptops in games since the mid-90s.

My experience is very clearly that it's communications tech that's a problem, and it's much more of a problem when it's new than when it's a year or three old. Mobile phones, then text messages were a problem for us in the mid-late '90s, but then they got under control. Twitter was a problem three years ago, but now it's gone away. The only thing that remains a problem from time to time is that some people's employees/SOs can't leave them alone, but honestly, better than goes via text than phone calls (the one SO who insists on phoning every hour or two causes more disruption than the rest put together).

If people are watching YouTube or whatever during your game - your problem ain't tech. It's either your game, or that player.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Anecdote time. I entered a World Tree character I had done on paper into the calculated Excel sheet I'm working on. Thanks to my checks and balances, I found that I had mis-re-added experience when changing the levels of a skill, as evidenced by XP in the category pool being negative, as well as the number of XP blocks remaining being a negative number. So that did help me correct the XP errors. That's less of a math error, and more of a "reading through erasure" error. I press hard, which sucks, because I used to love drawing as a kid, and I sometimes still have "erased" lines show.

Anecdote two: according to my mom, I was diagnosed as gifted at an early age. More recently, one of my friends suggested that she thinks I'm on the Autistic spectrum, and she has experience with that because she has a diagnosed autistic child. Ultimately, I think I'm better for not having it diagnosed if I am Autstic/Asperger's because it doesn't let me use it as an excuse. And yes, I've had experience with people using their disorders as a "get out of trouble/doing work" card.

 

[tomBitonti]

Because basic arithmetic is hard, and would not be quick and simple if you did it yourself? We need a computer to do it for us?

Some people definitely do. For very valid reasons. This is a case where patience and a gentle outlook help a lot. Don't add to folks hassles.

Anyways, I'm with the prior poster: This is a problem of people as much as it is of technology. We have technology, and need to learn how to use it. Beyond a certain age, failing to learn how and when to use technology is not just immediately rude, its a failure of responsibility.

Thx!

TomB