D&D General On Early D&D and Problematic Faves: How to Grapple with the Sins of the Past

[Hussar]

No one is saying that is less extreme. But other things being worse in the past doesn't make this a non-concern either.

That's true. But, it does help to keep perspective. Yes, the whole "cancel culture" thing is worrying. I agree. However, I also think that such concerns are perhaps something of a sign of the times. Like I said, being cancelled a couple of decades ago meant being incarcerated or being outright murdered. I'd say that things have improved a little bit since then.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That's true. But, it does help to keep perspective. Yes, the whole "cancel culture" thing is worrying. I agree. However, I also think that such concerns are perhaps something of a sign of the times. Like I said, being cancelled a couple of decades ago meant being incarcerated or being outright murdered. I'd say that things have improved a little bit since then.

I think these are two different problems. That wasn't being canceled, that was something else entirely. It was much worse, but it wasn't cancel culture. People who weren't famous didn't get canceled before. Celebrities could, if the press took an interest in a scandal. But a regular person? They may have had embarrassing moments or lost friends or job for some reason, you could maybe be run out of town. But there wasn't the reach of social media to cancel a normal person across the board. I am not saying there aren't worse things in history. But I think it is very worrying, especially when you consider things like suicide rates in the US. People dismiss losing a job like it's nothing, but folks hang themselves when they lose a job and can't pay the bills, or when job loss ruins a marriage and family. A job loss isn't a minor inconvenience for most people

EDIT: Thinking about this, yes we had public shaming before, but it wasn't on the scale it is today. These days it isn't like you can move to the next town over or go to another company. All employers, friends and family can google you and that is why this is so devastating for people. It is a stain that doesn't go away and limits their ability to get employment and connect with other people.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would also like to point out, since the cancel culture aspect is being mentioned, that many many famous people have very very loudly talked about how they have been cancelled. They have spoken about it at length, on news shows that pay them to speak, and on podcasts that invite them to come on, and in their book deals that they sign, and on their brand new show they got because they have been canceled.

Most of the rich and famous people crying about how cancelled they are... just got a nasty tweet that they used to make even more money and be heard even louder. Have there been a few people who lost their jobs among the poorer folk? Well... sometimes. But usually those people didn't get canceled... they got fired for breaking their company's policies. And it is ALWAYS for something they chose to do.

On the other side of the spectrum, people don't say they have been "cancelled". They get threats, death threats, threats of violence, threats against their family. They often don't get fired for something they did, but for who they are. And that is thankfully rare to see happen, because it is illegal. But it happens quietly and behind the scenes more often than not.

So, honestly, I'm not very concerned about those who claim to have been cancelled. The majority of them either broke the law (hey, turns out, sending death threats to people is illegal, who'd have thunk it) or just got some internet backlash that they turned into notoriety and fame. All while getting to play the victim. Because they couldn't get away with what they thought they could get away with.

 

[GrimCo]

I dunno. It's been a few generations since the last time we had large groups of people act on final solutions. The idea that somehow people were less likely to believe garbage and live in an information vacuum in the past seems a bit out of sync wiht history, considering what widespread beliefs of the time led to.

Depending on how large groups we are talking about. On the scale of ww2? No. On the lesser scale? Sadly, yes, we had something like that in Europe about 30 y ago and in Africa in the same period. Early to mid 90s sucked big time.

 

[Zardnaar]

Depending on how large groups we are talking about. On the scale of ww2? No. On the lesser scale? Sadly, yes, we had something like that in Europe about 30 y ago and in Africa in the same period. Early to mid 90s sucked big time.

Followed that back then. Aged 16 or 18 give or take.

By 1999 I knew what a tankie was. By 2005 holocaust denial.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would also like to point out, since the cancel culture aspect is being mentioned, that many many famous people have very very loudly talked about how they have been cancelled. They have spoken about it at length, on news shows that pay them to speak, and on podcasts that invite them to come on, and in their book deals that they sign, and on their brand new show they got because they have been canceled.

I wasn't talking about celebrities. I was talking about everyday people and I include other elements of social media in what we are discussing, like harrassment. I was basically saying regular peopel getting mobbed on social media is, in my opinion, not good for society. And people do kill themselves over this. People do lose their jobs over this stuff and find gainful employment difficult. I agree, celebrities can always make a buck out of controversy. Cancel culture in that field is more frustrating than anything else (it can mean a movie or book you were looking forward to doesnt get released). I still don't think it is good, but celebrities can move on easily. A regular worker can't.

 

[Bedrockgames]

On the other side of the spectrum, people don't say they have been "cancelled". They get threats, death threats, threats of violence, threats against their family. They often don't get fired for something they did, but for who they are. And that is thankfully rare to see happen, because it is illegal. But it happens quietly and behind the scenes more often than not.

Both things can be bad. People being discriminated against is bad. People being shamed en masse on social media, ostracized and losing work (which happens to lots of regular people now), sometimes for a reason, sometimes because of bad optics, and sometimes because they had a bad day or misread the room...this is also bad. It isn't like we have to have one or the other, we can reject both. It is bad that people thwart and even try to destroy peoples lives on social media by whipping up others against them

 

[GrimCo]

How often does it happen? I mean, Joe Nobody, who works as garbage collector or grocery store worker for example, losing job cause something he posted on social media? Also, how legal is it to fire somebody cause of social media post?

 

[Alzrius]

How often does it happen? I mean, Joe Nobody, who works as garbage collector or grocery store worker for example, losing job cause something he posted on social media? Also, how legal is it to fire somebody cause of social media post?

I don't know how often it happens, and I suspect that there's no way to know simply because there's no (easy) method of aggregating that data, but I'd caution against weighing the substance of an injustice by its frequency. While there's certainly a justifiable element of pragmatism in trying to address the most recurrent social problems first, that's simply due to the nature of practical reality. As an ideal, however, our shared definition of justice rejects that such thinking should be taken into consideration, hence the enshrinement of Blackstone's ratio as not only a legal principle, but a moral one. There many not be many people like Emmanuel Cafferty or Justine Sacco out there, but that doesn't make what happened to them any less heinous, nor less worthy of redress.

As for how legal it is to fire someone for social media posting (or any other factor that isn't related to their job performance), that depends on the state you live in (in the U.S.), but the majority of them have at-will employment laws on the books, meaning they can fire you for any reason they wish (so long as the reason cited doesn't fall under a handful of protected exceptions, e.g. race or religion).

 

[Mannahnin]

How often does it happen? I mean, Joe Nobody, who works as garbage collector or grocery store worker for example, losing job cause something he posted on social media? Also, how legal is it to fire somebody cause of social media post?

LibsofTikTok apparently maintains a whole account and following getting ordinary people they disagree with fired or harassed over social media posts. :/