D&D 5E Should the Fighter's "Second Wind" ability grant temporary HP instead of regular HP?

Should "Second Wind" grant temporary HP instead of HP?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 58 23.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 118 46.8%
  • I'm not bothered either way.

    Votes: 76 30.2%

So what stops you as DM from removing the ability from fighters and house ruling something else (or nothing) in its place?
Because past a certain point, it's no longer about the rules of the game that's coming out. It's about the true heart and soul of D&D. :)

I expect there'll be pages of advice in the DMG about switching around default healing assumptions, and I'm sure both Second Wind and magic healing will be addressed. At least, I can't imagine they wouldn't be.
 

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That is not how the game works or is narrated. You can narrate it the way you like, but even in 4th edition HP below 50% clearly shows injuries narratively speaking, injuries which are recognizable at distance by opponents and allies alike. If you are narrating HP loss below 50% as having zero meat component, you are simply not playing by the rules and I have no interest in debating other people's pet houserules because they are irrelevant.
You ever see a boxing match? Fighters get busted lips and eyes swolen shut but they still fight.

Have you ever seen a 'extreme rules' pro wrestling match? Wrestlers take little razor blades and cut themselves to draw blood. They are, in every sense of the word, bloodied. But they are not seriously wounded. Cuts, scrapes, and bruises hurt, they may even become something more serious if left untreated, but in most cases they aren't life-threatening. That's how HP damage 'works' within the story. That's how it always has worked. It's not about how much physical damage you can take, but how much physical damage you can take before your stamina gives out or a serious wound is recieved. And sometimes that means you can dig deep and find more, or indeed, have some fight shouted back into you by a Warlord.

If you can't make this work within your fictional fantasy realm of giant winged lizards and bards who literally fight with the power of music then you're the one being lazy. Either way the WOTC design team has no obligation to cater to your lazy imagination when the majority of the feedback they received has apparently led them to conclude that most of us don't have a problem with the Second Wind feature.
 

Because past a certain point, it's no longer about the rules of the game that's coming out. It's about the true heart and soul of D&D. :)

Stop with your logic and stuff :)

I expect there'll be pages of advice in the DMG about switching around default healing assumptions, and I'm sure both Second Wind and magic healing will be addressed. At least, I can't imagine they wouldn't be.

Yep. I could see that. Even if the DMG doesn't address it, I am sure some future supplement will...and if not, individual DMs can/will house rule it for their game(s).
 

I am an "HP as basically meat" person, and I have no issue with the Second Wind recovering HP as I have no problem with a Fighter saying, basically, "That damage you did to me? I'm going to ignore it. I am THAT TOUGH."

For a less intense version, the idea someone mentioned earlier in the thread, of an equivalent action that can grant you THP sounds like a good fix.

There's no need to get into the weeds on "WHAT ARE HP REALLY!?!?!?!". If this ability doesn't work for you for whatever reason it shouldn't be a big deal to replace it with something that does.

Works fine for me, though, and I do view losing HP as actually taking some injury.
 

It shows a complete disdain on the part of the developers who promised us modularity, because "one size does not fit all". That was a lie. They lied to us.
....
This is either laziness, incompetence, or hubris on their part.

Seriously, listening to you would be a mistake, and I hope the developers realized that.

I realize there's a certain :):):):):):):) element to saying "if you don't like the onions just pick them out" ....


Okay. I need everyone here to tone it down. A lot. We recognize that everyone has opinions, and sometimes they are pretty passionate, but we need folks to show some respect and keep discussion to a constructive level.

DDNFan, we've spoken before. Your hyperoblics, absolutes and willingness to say bad things about people simply goes too far. You are creating an adversarial atmosphere, and we won't put up with it much more. You seem to be conducting an edition war before the game has even been released, with a "my way of the highway" kind of attitude.

LFK, you need to watch your language, for one - please don't invoke the language filter again. And it if looks like the other person isn't going to listen, just leave them alone. Getting personal with comments like, "listening to you would be a mistake" doesn't show any more respect for him than he's showing for others.

Overall - if you're not going to play nice, and discuss CONSTRUCTIVELY, then please just leave it be.
 


Because past a certain point, it's no longer about the rules of the game that's coming out. It's about the true heart and soul of D&D. :)

I expect there'll be pages of advice in the DMG about switching around default healing assumptions, and I'm sure both Second Wind and magic healing will be addressed. At least, I can't imagine they wouldn't be.

I can. Second Wind is a clear victory for your playstyle over mine, and I don't see them offering any alternatives for controversial stuff that exists in Basic D&D, because it's supposed to be part of the assumed core of the game and you can't get any more core than a level 1 basic fighter.

Put it this way, if there is an alternate Second Wind in the DMG, it would be like them admitting they deliberately chose (which they did), a controversial mechanic for the most basic class of the game which has caused endless debate since the 4e era, as a giveaway to fans of that game to get them on board and buy the books, over the objections of others who have very good reasons to, because HP aren't stamina in D&D. D&D doesn't model stamina in a round by round fashion, never has and never will. It's too boring to even contemplate how tired someone is after 6 seconds of combat or why, if they are incredibly tired after such a short time, are they out adventuring and not in a retirement home for ageing adventurers, or why aren't they taking a -1 penalty to hit after each round of combat. Or why you can swing your sword arm all day but it's only when the giant's hammer hits you squarely on the head do you get tired (because you can now use Second Wind to restore that lost "stamina")
 

So what stops you as DM from removing the ability from fighters and house ruling something else (or nothing) in its place?

When I DM? Nothing, I already have a set of houserules of my own for the playtests. When I am a player, which is for the most part, I don't want to have to convince a DM each time of the reasoning behind my houserules. I don't always succeed in my attempts at convincing, but I usually do because my friends respect me and my judgment and vice versa.

For example, tonight my character turned level 4. We found a magic battle axe in a mound. I picked it up. Since I play a dual wielding ranger, I can't use it and my fighting style at the same time, or synergize with my class features effectively. But it sure was a nice axe. So upon turning to level 4, I looked at the Dual Wielder feat. Why exactly is it unbalanced to take one feat to be able to wield two non-light weapons again, exactly? It isn't. Not compared to Great Weapon Master or Polearm Master. I took the feat then asked my DM if I could forego the AC bonus to be able to dual wield regular sized weapons. My reasoning was that it was less than the +1 to hit and damage that boosting my strength would give, and that giving up the point of AC for the versatility of using non-light weapons, which are the most common magic weapon drops in the loot tables, is more than a balanced tradeoff. (Probably too harsh, actually, but I'm happy with it).

But the designers should have realized this would happen at tables all across the world playing their new game with a fetish for asymmetry (one non-light and one light weapon, that's for amateurs, not "Dual Wielders"). Instead, 5th edition is the first edition ever in which one can't dual wield battle axes or longswords, even with their "super feats" which are supposed to be a one stop shop for getting everything related to that in one go. Instead, the feat provides proficiency with all light weapons (whoop), a +1 to AC (didn't want that), and only one non-light weapon, so it's only half of what the feat should be doing, and doesn't even match the wording of the feat, which has the term "dual" in it. This is more like "crab style" feat, that would be a more appropriate name for it. That's a failure of design on their part that needlessly restricts common and valid character build choices so that one can't easily migrate over your characters from a prior edition in which this was legal (unless you use a houserule, which is not an elegant solution). I'd rather not have to waste my mental energy to correct shortcomings in the rules myself, and would have preferred that the actual designers understood that dual wielding such weapons was popular enough an option to support it in the official rules. This is all not to mention that their design "fix" for Drizzt clones is to make scimitars light weapons while rapiers aren't, which is just wrong in so many ways since scimitars are way heavier and harder to swing than rapiers. Now scimitars are just refluffed short swords. Why not make Drizzt clones take a feat? Also why full mod to main hand attacks and 0 mod to off hand attacks? More asymmetric design here, it rubs me the wrong way.

Incidentally, the very same designers made a very similar gaff in 4th edition. They made the Two-Weapon Fighting feat give only a +1 to the main hand attack, which made all your Twin Strikes lopsided and they errataed it a few years later because it was silly feat anyway and nobody was taking it because of the weird math and piddly bonus it gave. Now they are repeating their mistakes in certain ways, and this will also probably be errataed because I don't see them releasing a new feat to allow proper dual wielding in a later splat book just to correct this shortcoming in the new edition. I consider if fairly inevitable, I would just rather not have to deal with the headache of these kinds of "but doing d8 instead of d6 for one of your three attacks is so overpowered and we can't allow that. Meanwhile, double your damage feat for barbarians over here! Grab it while it's hot".

There are other issues with Second Wind than just the fact that it's a pseudo-lay on hands by a different name. It's by choice. Have you ever gone for a run and chosen to get your second wind? It's not a voluntary thing, it just kicks in at a certain point and I find the entire concept of the new fighter self-heal ability to be a highly amateurish, confused affair of contradictory mechanics that don't match their in-game effect.

Kamikaze, how can a first level fighter just take a whack in the head and shrug it off and say, I am just that tough? The barbarian does that with his rage ability via Temp HP. It's right there. It's stuff like that that makes me think the designers are all over the map and there's probably some tug of war between the designers going on behind the scenes. It feels like a design by committee in some places, where the manager isn't really doing his job to make sure all the pieces fit together well.
 
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I would add - shouldn't every fight be dramatic? That's certainly what I am for at my table!

Dramatic to the extent that the fighter is getting beat upon and then surges back? Every fight? No. I wouldn't want every fight to have that level of drama and would consider such an adventure to be poorly paced and kind of monotonous.
 

if there is an alternate Second Wind in the DMG, it would be like them admitting they deliberately chose (which they did), a controversial mechanic for the most basic class of the game which has caused endless debate since the 4e era, as a giveaway to fans of that game to get them on board and buy the books, over the objections of others who have very good reasons to, because HP aren't stamina in D&D.
Once again, I'm wondering if you're really serious.

The single most controversial ability in 4e, as far as I can tell, is Come and Get It. The 4e PHB shipped with 4 alternatives to that ability.

They included Second Wind as a fighter ability, I am guessing, because playtesting showed that it is popular among players of fighters. (Which, to be honest, is no great surprise.) I think most people accept that if you can recover from wounds with an hour's rest (which is how the default healing and HD rules work), then if you're a tough fighter you can do that during combat too, by finding your Second Wind.

how can a first level fighter just take a whack in the head and shrug it off and say, I am just that tough? The barbarian does that with his rage ability via Temp HP. It's right there.
They're mechanically different abilities, exploiting design space within the D&D system. Narratively, they're not as different. But this wouldn't be the only time D&D has used multiple mechanical realisations of the same narrative (eg both DEX bonus to AC and hit points gained with levels correspond to a character evading blows).

Barbarian rage is, mechanically, a power up. Second wind is, mechanically, a recovery. They play in different ways - powering up with a rage is the default option for the player of a barbarian, whereas second wind requires decent timing, especially at low levels where your second wind healing is a decent proportion of your overall hp - you don't want to go to early and waste some of your healing, but you don't want to wait to late and end up unconscious or dead before your turn comes round again.

I haven't done the maths to work out whether or not they're balanced, and frankly I'm not a big fan of the whole rages per day mechanic, which requires a barbarian player to gamble at the start of a combat whether or not the combat is worth spending a rage on. But conceptually I don't see any problematic comparison between the two abilities.
 

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