Be honest, how long would it really take you to notice all of this stuff...?

Manbearcat and Pemerton were discussing their style of play as opposed to the 'living, breathing world'
By "living, breathing world" I was referring to the style of play that puzzled [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], namely setting out backstory in advance, and statting it all up (either literally or notionally), even though this is not for the purposes of creating a classic Gygaxian/Pulsipherian challenge game. (An example would be where the GM has decided that (say) the mayor of the village has such-and-such stats, even though there is no expectation that the players are meant to learn what those stats are and use that knowledge as a resource for their own clever play.)

Flexible backstory? Are we saying players can change their characters backgrounds every x period of time or when they fee like it?
I'm not referring particularly to PC backstory, although that can be flexible too. I'm referring primarily to world backstory. Ie, the stuff that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] was talking about in his post.

For instance, and to take an example from my own campaign: why is the Raven Queen on good terms with Kas, even though she hates undead and Kas is a vampire lord? I don't know - although it has been established in play that she is on good terms with him, the reason for this hasn't been established yet. When the time comes for me to make a decision, I will be doing my best to make a decision with maximum dramatic heft, both in terms of shock value and generating momentum.

To give a PC-oriented example: it turned out that the human wizard in my campaign was really a deva who had taken human form, and lost his memories, for one of his incarnations. But when he died fighting an angel of Bane, he was reborn once more as a deva and regained his memory of 1000 lifetimes.

The PC had been in play from 1st level. This particular bit of backstory was brought to light at 16th level.

In general, when I refer to "flexible backstory" I am referring to the technique which holds that no backstory is firmly established until it is actually narrated in play, either by a player or (more often) by the GM. The most hardcore form of flexible backstory is no myth.

An additional feature of flexible backstory is not determining the mechanical representation of a gameworld element until it is needed for play. In 4e, this means using all the monster-building tools that have been discussd in this thread. In Robin Laws' HeroQuest revised, this means using the system for setting DCs, where the DCs are higher the more successes in a row the players have had. In Burning Wheel - which uses "objecive" rather than "level appropriate" DCs - the Adventure Burner (which is that game's equivalent of a GM's guide) suggests not statting up the big bad until the last feasible moment of prep, because you want that NPC, in mechanical terms, to be a suitable challenge for the PCs.

Or to refer again to the village mayor example, there would be no need to stat up the village mayor until those stats were actually going to matter to an action resolution declared by the players. (In 4e this would mostly be combat - because non-combat in 4e is resovled via skill challenges, which is a players-roll-all-the-dice technique in which the you don't need to give stats to the NPCs who are part of the scene in order to work out the DCs - you just need narative descriptions like "not very brave" or "as a matter of pride, unwilling to compromise".)

How would you discourage players deciding that their 1st level characters from crossing the Altan Peaks (dangerous group of mountains for 1st levels in Mystara)? I mean they already know every encounter is based on level not on an intuitive world, so the dragons they will encounter will be of a comparable level as will the giants?
This is not an example of flexible backstory. In fact, it seems to be an example of exactly the opposite. If, in the course of play, I present the players with the opportunity to have their PCs explore the Altan Peaks, why would I then try to discourage them? That just looks like bad GMing to me. If I present them with the Altan Peaks, then the backstory of the world is going to include the Altan Peaks being the sort of place the PCs might try and cross.

To give an example from actual play: in the default "story arc" of 4e, PCs start at heroic tier - able to help villagers, fight orcs and goblins, etc - then advance to paragon tier - able to defend nations and enter the Underdark - and then advance to epic tier - able to travel the planes and challenge the gods and primordials.

When my campaign started at heroic tier I didn't frame the PCs into situations that were obviously incongruous for that tier - eg present them with an invasion by duergar or drow. I framed them into situations that fit with that tier - defending a homestead from goblin marauders, sneaking into a hobgoblin fortress, recovering a stolen elven idol from a haunted island temple, etc.

When the game advanced to paragon tier, the nature of the challenges presented likewise changed. The PCs got the opportunity to take the battle to the hobgoblin army, where the five of them defeated an entire army (but not without losing their wizard, as described in the post linked to upthread). Now that they are epic tier, the challenges have changed yet again: they are on the Feywild trying to end the War of Seasons between Winter and Summer Fey, by defeating the army of frost giants mustered by Lolth in cooperation with the Prince of Frost.

If I were to present my players, with 1st level PCs, with a situation in which the most immediate and pressing threat was a war with frost giants, and then reminded them that, as 1st level PCs their prospects of hurting 17th level giants were pretty slim, I don't think I'd be doing a very good job of GMing. Likewise if I presented them with the Altan Peaks (at least as you describe them).

Perhaps 'living, breathing world' allows for players to make more informed decisions, based primarily on their previous experiences and knowledge.
The characters are much more imbedded into the setting - with the deities laws, dangerous locales, belief of superstitions...etc

In the absence of 'living, breathing world' everything is possible at the get go since one is continuously running level-based combat challengers which is, one could argue, but an exercise in die rolling.
This makes no sense to me. I don't see any connection between the technique used to establish backstory and mechanical representation of gameworld elements, and combat.

For instance, White Plume Mountain is a pre-authored scenario - both fiction and stats - but any group playing through White Plume Mountain is going to have to engage in quite a bit of combat. Conversely, here is a write up of the design and play of a scenario which was primarily exploration rather than content, but which used relatively little pre-establihsed backstory. It illustrates how players can make decisions based on previus experience and knowledge whether or not the GM has pre-authored and pre-statted the aspects of the gameworld that the PCs are dealing with.

Sure there is the illusion of meaningful choices being made, which ability to use first in combination with which allies' abilities, how to use terrain..etc and the consequences are the same, worst case scenario one's character dies BUT one knows that EVERY challenge is based on their level and it doesn't have to be intuitive with the world at all.
I don't really have any idea what this is about. I don't know what you mean by "intuitive with the world". If the PCs are fighting some creatures, than those creatures are the gameworld. And if the choices that the players make don't have any meaning either for the resolution of the encounter, nor for the broader context of the campaign, then I don't see what the point of the combat is at all.

The thing is - you could have had that exact same storyline in other editions of D&D without changing the monsters' stats from level to level.
That's not in dispute (though in 3E wouldn't it be incredibly tedious to play out?). I also noted upthread that, in 5e, bouned accuracy is meant to handle this (though I worry a bit about tediousness there too). The point of the example is to rebut the claim that the 4e method entails an inconsistency of gameworld and of mechanics.

4E is in my opinion the best fantasy sim edition of D&D ever.
But it's not process sim. It doesn't determine outcomes by modelling the processes that occur in the gameworld. Rather, it uses a large does of fortune-in-the-middle and relies upon both players and GM having a good sense of genre constraints (including the specifications of the differences between tiers) in order to achieve heroic fantasy outcomes.
 

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OK. You don't like minion rules? Don't Use Them! It's quite simple. There is nothing saying you must minionise monsters at higher level - almost the reverse. For those of us who like them they improve the game - but there is literally nowhere in the rules saying that the DM must make this choice. However for some of us it adds interest, challenge, and immersion to the setting and breaks away from the utterly artificial, Order of the Stick like nature of hit points.

Why are you objecting to us having tools we like?

I'm not objecting to you using whatever tools you like. You (and your opponents) are the ones engaging in debate, attempting to persuade the other side of the superiority of your perception of the system. If I disagree with a particular argument - for example, that "portraying creatures with different stats at different game points is more engaging drama" - I am free to counter that point with "I don't feel I would be engaged by that as you suggest".

If this whole thing were about "play what you like" there wouldn't be a discussion, much less argument. This argument is about why some people see a particular model of game reality (hit points) as superior to another. And why they feel that their model is a superior one to include in a published product.
 

For instance, perhaps you're referring to a revelation or an omen of ill portent where the resolution of "It" is low at its inception. "It" does something concrete that perturbs the world, interfacing with the PCs in some way (either peripherally or directly). The PCs do not proactively involve themselves with whatever conflict "it" is pushing. "It" does more concrete things and therefore its malleability recedes until "It" is made wholly rigid due to either (i) a requisite number of concrete things "It" has done (which establishes its nature) or (ii) "It" gets up close and personal with the PCs because they seek "It" out. When it appears inevitable that it will reach (i) or (ii), "It" is mechanically iterated.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're describing, but, if you wouldn't mind, could you provide an example from your table?


The description above covers two different tools I use.

The first is creation of new game assets.

I create small after-action reports for myself. The primary purpose is to collect world results so as to determine consequence/world reaction and to collect loose ends -- those things that happened or were discovered by the table through play that do not currently have a known cause.

I review my loose thread file and look for a cause that can be the rationale for one or more threads. Once I'm inspired, I'll review constraints on the potential of the asset (minimum/maximum strength, breadth of operation, known intelligence by other groups, etc.) so the insertion provides no contradiction for table history. If the asset is still viable, I'll design the asset, attach the threads to it, and add it to my "default future-history" timeline (what will happen assuming the PCs do nothing to cause any alterations).

The asset now "exists". It will react to PC actions that are of interest to it and it will continue to cause effects in the universe for the PCs to detect and interact with as it exerts an influence on the area around it.

Asset reaction is my second major tool. Assets will react to PC action, to each other, and to the passage of time. The way assets react is constrained by their nature, their strength, breadth of operation, and their knowledge.

Here's a simple example. While on an overland mission, the party is attacked a few times by the same random encounter: cultists. Normally this encounter is rare. There is no game asset in the area that can account for the activity. The history for the area notes a diabolic coven was burned out of the area about a century ago. Could a new coven be forming? Other loose ends include rumours fed to the group about missing townsfolk -- the townsfolk are blaming the dryads in the faerie woods. If a coven were trying to move into the area, what would be attracting it? Until now no one has raised an alarm or mentioned unusual events so the group has to be small and circumspect but large enough it can tolerate the losses from the encounters. Using the area maps I note a abandoned logging camp not too far from a couple of the attack sites. The camp notes a few small fae creatures call it home. If the coven wants to move in here it will have to dislocate the fae.

So using the constraints determined, I figure the coven could exist but would require a minimum level 7 leader to account for the strength of those already encountered. The coven is seeking the original coven site as it believes an item of power lies forgotten in the ashes. Considering the area, if the leader were 9th level or higher, available magic would circumvent the need for manual searching to a degree that the encounters wouldn't have happened.

So I add the remnants of a coven led by a 7-8th level character. Effects on the game world:
Displaced fay will begin to appear in nearby locations complaining to the local druids about humans who break the treaties
Others traveling in the area will report encountering similar cultists (if powerful enough to survive) or just go missing
Quiet recruitment in the area and further afield to make up for losses suffered

The coven is added to the timeline with actions (searching for site for next 83 days, setting up to excavate the site in 90 days, discovery by local druids in 76 days), other assets get new actions (druids look for help investigating faerie claims in 15 days, seek out problem themselves in 70 days if no help forthcoming).
 

The thing is - you could have had that exact same storyline in other editions of D&D without changing the monsters' stats from level to level. The PCs start out at 1st level fighting something like, say, a humanoid with ogre stats (still too weak?) and then by 11th level, that's no challenge any more. Your example does not actually support a need for minion rules - just that you used the minion rules as intended by the designer.

So my point remains - for some people it works, and for some it doesn't.

What are you talking about?

My example was of a constant threat yours was of a one time threat now a joke


What level do you think a wizard can one on one an Oger in melee in 3e... My beat is long before 11th

The fighter can dance through an army provoking I'll attacks singing "can't touch this" by that point but the minons are still a threat
 

By "living, breathing world" I was referring to the style of play that puzzled [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], namely setting out backstory in advance, and statting it all up (either literally or notionally), even though this is not for the purposes of creating a classic Gygaxian/Pulsipherian challenge game. (An example would be where the GM has decided that (say) the mayor of the village has such-and-such stats, even though there is no expectation that the players are meant to learn what those stats are and use that knowledge as a resource for their own clever play.)
I believe the term for that may be "onanistic world design", although, to be fair, I might be making that up. :)
 


And being both crude and patronising as you do
Hey now. Crude, certainly. :) But not patronizing. I like a fleshed-out campaign setting as much as the next guy. I just think detailing the game world down to the stats of the village blacksmith is, at best, unnecessary, and at worst, actively detrimental to good gaming.

It encourages the "look at my cool world!" style of DMing as opposed to "let's promote the action of the PCs" style that I find almost always makes for a more successful game.

And let's be honest. While there's plenty of DMs who work on detailed settings simply for the love of world-building, there's also quite a few who use it as a channel for their raging narcissism.
 

I believe the term for that may be "onanistic world design", although, to be fair, I might be making that up. :)

That seems like a needlessly judgmental term, to me, as someone who can take or leave either form of world design (and the many between them). I mean, if someone whittles bits of wood for their own amusement, not for others to see, do we call them a wood-wanker? ;)

I get a bit of the hostility because it can be part of a set of behaviours that suck, namely the whole "It's my world, you're just living in it!" deal, which is often accompanied by horrible GMPCs, extreme hostility to the PCs making world-altering decisions, extreme railroading, and excessive DM fiat to protect said world.

But that's not always the way, and some players genuinely want to be living in someone else's world (whether the DM's or a pre-made setting or whatever), and not all DMs who enjoy crafting a world are frustrated novelists and/or power-mad dictators who don't really want anyone touching their toys except as directed (there is a certain percentage, of course).
 

That seems like a needlessly judgmental term, to me, as someone who can take or leave either form of world design (and the many between them). I mean, if someone whittles bits of wood for their own amusement, not for others to see, do we call them a wood-wanker? ;)
If I need a term for someone who feverishly works away at something (call it "X") in complete solitude for their own personal pleasure, I could do a lot worse than "X-wanker". :)
 

If I need a term for someone who feverishly works away at something (call it "X") in complete solitude for their own personal pleasure, I could do a lot worse than "X-wanker". :)

You could, but there's something... hostile to people who don't follow the "norms of society", in that perspective that seems, I dunno, like something that should have been left in the 20th century, not pushed onwards in the 21st.

I'm all about mocking DMs who want to railroad me and show me their precious little world BUT DON'T TOUCH, or who are convinced they are the next Tolkien (without justification - if with, I will be impressed! :) ), but I dunno, sometimes even I have enjoyed crafting settings I might never actually use (though I tend to go more macro than micro), and doing that has made me a better DM, and better able to make stuff up on the fly.

So why judge, man? If they're harshing your groove in an actual game, sure, but if they're in their own room, doing their thing, I'm not going to look down on them.
 

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