D&D 5E Lost Mine of Phandelver - comments and complaints after read-through (spoilers)

[Gargoyle]

The remarks from stevelabny are my thoughts exactly.
What makes it worse are the flaws of the folkhero PC, so if they RP him correctly he will be too arrogant to believe failure is an option.

Not only that, the players themselves might think it is possible.
They will probably have the videogame reaction of "Well, if it's there then it means that we can beat it."
I know that they should change this feeling but waiting for a TPK and then saying "Well, now you've learned." isn't going to make for happy players I think.

The dragon will probably kill them in round one so they won't have an oppurtunity to flee.
And even if they could then I think it would be a big letdown for the player of the Folkhero PC to be the only one with a goal that he/she can't really accomplish.

Ugh, this one is going to give me a lot of headache I'm afraid.

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

Your concern is valid. Dragons are like levers. If you put a lever in a dungeon, someone will pull it.

There are three things that I would do:
1) Make sure they encounter the cultists first, or at least encourage them to do so through the druid NPC.
2) Instead of the druid asking them to drive off the dragon right off, have him ask them to slay the twig blights and zombies.
3) Warn them overtly of how powerful the dragon is.


1) Cultists. The cultist encounter is a pretty good one (evil guys that don't automatically attack!) that resourceful players might use to their advantage against the dragon. I can see groups easily seeing through their manipulation and turning the table on the cultists.

I could see it playing out like this:

- PC's encounter the creepy cultists who have evil written all over the them with their masks, etc, but who aren't hostile and try to convince the PC's to help them talk to the dragon.
- PC's converse privately and agree, but they know they're going to get doublecrossed and have a plan.
- The cultists try to offer them up as tribute to the dragon, but the PC's enact their plan, which could be a number of things.
- The dragon ends up attacking the cultists for a couple of rounds, first with his breath, and they try to run. Maybe one survives to serve as a recurring villain.
- The PC's commence with the stabbing and spellslinging and drive the dragon off.

They could botch things and end up having to fight both the dragon and cultists, but I think not. More likely they either get the hell out of there with intention to return later (smart) or convince the dragon the cultists are out for its treasure and forced them to join them, which would be an easy sell...who brings armed tribute? (clever and daring)

Now if they never meet the cultists and go straight to fight the dragon, I think that would be a shame, so I'd make sure they encounter them first, but other than that I wouldn't railroad them too much. While I mostly like letting them go where they want, if they headed straight to the tower, I'd divert them, maybe have the druid find them and warn them away.

2) Druid. One thing I dislike about this druid fellow is that he really doesn't know how powerful these adventurers are, but is fine with sending them off to fight the dragon...without helping. So maybe he's a fool and a coward, but you'd think he'd at least do two things:

One, have them prove their might and help him by killing the zombies and twig blights in the area and investigating the cultists. He doesn't help because he needs to "conserve his magic", or some such...maybe he provides some sanctuary by concentrating on a ritual and could provide some healing for them when they rest.
And two, after they've had a long rest (and hopefully leveled up) ask them to help him drive off the dragon. So there are two ways they are nudged to fight the dragon, one is the cultists, one is the druid. I don't believe there are stats for the druid so you'd have to either make them up using playtest rules, or stat him up as a cleric. I'd give him lots of healing and buff type spells to keep the spotlight on the PC's, with maybe shapeshifting into a bear form if they are caster heavy and need a melee distraction. Or maybe he doesn't face the dragon with them (I'm too old to fight) but buffs them before they go.

3) I wouldn't make the dragon any easier to fight, but in town maybe have them hear a couple of rumors about how a green dragon killed an entire patrol with just one breath. Bodies of would be dragon slayers rotting in the entrance to the tower can block the entrance while providing a suitable warning of the type of breath they can expect.

Personally I'm also ok with them randomly running across a creature too tough for them now and then and being forced to run. But I can see the point where it's anticlimactic to get one-shot TPK'd. And I'd much prefer that encounters with dragons aren't anticlimactic.

OTOH, as a card carrying member of BADD (Bothered About Disposable Dragons) I don't want dragons to be a meaningless encounter / loot pinata, thus me thinking I don't want to pull too many punches and probably won't change it much, but I might make this dragon more than a side encounter. So while I will probably leave the encounter as is using the above methods to make the encounter interesting, it might be the mate of the true mastermind (instead of a drow, make it a female green dragon) and fly off early to warn her of the adventurers. Or maybe I won't cause I'm busy and it's just easier to run it as is.

 

[KarinsDad]

"And now you know not to meddle with dragons. Anyone keen to reload your saved game?". Let them rewind the encounter and make a different choice. The Starter Set is supposed to be a learning experience. They've now learned their lesson, so where's the harm in undoing it?

And if the players in a given group reply "No, this game sucks. Let's go do something else".

Not all players are the same. I've seen players get mad over the most trivial of things.

D&D is not a "I am the Dungeon Master and I am here to teach you things." type of game.

D&D is a game to have fun.


I'm also a big fan of what happens, happens. This set back the clock entitlement crap is for the birds.

The Dragon is a flawed design of the module. Fix it, one way or another.

 

[The Hitcher]

And if your players reply "No, this game sucks. Let's go do something else".

Not all players are the same. I've seen players get mad over the most trivial of things.

D&D is not a "I am the Dungeon Master and I am here to teach you things." type of game.

D&D is a game to have fun.


I'm also a big fan of what happens, happens. This set back the clock entitlement crap is for the birds.

The Dragon is a flawed design of the module. Fix it, one way or another.

I fixed it. You don't like my fix? Make your own. And get over your superior attitude.

 

[Phoenix8008]

The remarks from stevelabny are my thoughts exactly.
What makes it worse are the flaws of the folkhero PC, so if they RP him correctly he will be too arrogant to believe failure is an option.

Not only that, the players themselves might think it is possible.
They will probably have the videogame reaction of "Well, if it's there then it means that we can beat it."
I know that they should change this feeling but waiting for a TPK and then saying "Well, now you've learned." isn't going to make for happy players I think.

The dragon will probably kill them in round one so they won't have an oppurtunity to flee.
And even if they could then I think it would be a big letdown for the player of the Folkhero PC to be the only one with a goal that he/she can't really accomplish.

Ugh, this one is going to give me a lot of headache I'm afraid.

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

With this knowledge in hand, any DM could fudge the rolls enough to scare the bejeezes out of the PC's and maybe get them to run away for their lives. If it requires downing half the party on round one so that the other half decides to pick them up and run for it, then great. You could make the Dragon down most of them and then offer to let them live/leave if they give up any magic items and treasure to the dragon. Lots of possiblities exist to fix it to your liking!

 

[reiella]

To teach players that this isn't a video game, and you're not supposed to be able to kill everything you encounter. Also to highlight how powerful dragons are and to introduce players to the iconic monsters that are the game's namesake.

I take a bit of contest with the isn't a video game assessment. It's still like a video game, just one where the player is expected to metagame that there are encounters that they need to skip for now/return to later.

 

[KarinsDad]

I fixed it. You don't like my fix? Make your own. And get over your superior attitude.

Replaying the scenario over is not a fix. It doesn't fix the module, it attempts to fix the players.

Sorry if you do not like it when someone says that something that you suggest is a lousy idea, but sorry, that's a lousy idea because it might just alienate some players from the game.

 

[The Hitcher]

Not all players are the same.

No, they certainly are not. And it's totally impossible to make an adventure that caters to every individual. That doesn't make the module broken.

I've seen players get mad over the most trivial of things.

Maybe the people you play with are like that. The people I play with are universally lovely and open to imaginative solutions.

D&D is a game to have fun.

Sure is. And I like my fun better than your fun.

I could go on about how your ideas are lousy, but that seems pointless. I'm really not interested in your opinion. I've read a bunch of your posts today, and it turns out that I disagree with you on pretty much everything. My suggestions were for [MENTION=6775814]Nemio[/MENTION] (who asked for suggestions), and he/she can take or leave them.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

"And now you know not to meddle with dragons. Anyone keen to reload your saved game?". Let them rewind the encounter and make a different choice. The Starter Set is supposed to be a learning experience. They've now learned their lesson, so where's the harm in undoing it?

I feel like this would work about four zillion times better with experienced RPG players who are merely new to 5E or new to FRPGs/D&D (who will likely laugh and agree), than actual RPG newbies, who I suspect are going to be pretty gutted, emotionally, by their PCs being suddenly, unavoidably (from their perspective) dead, and see what you're offering here as rather "cheap" (esp. if they were really roleplaying their little hearts out).

Just IME, of course.

 

[77IM]

Just TELL the players how hard the dragon is!!!

Call it a "passive Nature check" if you want to dress it up in pretty narrative. Maybe if they roll a decent Nature or Arcana result they get a few specifics, too. If they're bad at Nature make sure the druid NPC spells it out for them.

But definitely make sure they know how hard it is even if you have to tell them point-blank "yeah it's a level 8 monster that will wipe the floor with you guys." This meta-game talk breaks immersion a bit, but trust me, your players will appreciate it. Heck, turn it around and make them figure out how the PCs know this.

A game is a series of interesting decisions. Deciding how to handle Venomfang is way more interesting if the players know how tough he is.

 

[jadrax]

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

My tip is that in general you don't let your players know that. It's your job to run the game, not to run the players.

If GMs spent one tenth of the time they spend worrying about hypothetical problems, on instead trying to run a better game, they would not have player issues. You need to go out and run the best game you can, make it memorable, worry about what your NPCs are going to do and how they are trying to do it. Be positive, be enthusiastic, be fair.