D&D 5E Lost Mine of Phandelver - comments and complaints after read-through (spoilers)

[KarinsDad]

No, they certainly are not. And it's totally impossible to make an adventure that caters to every individual. That doesn't make the module broken.

Sorry, but this is broken. A monster that the PCs are encouraged to fight that has the chance to kill some or all of them in round one is broken.

Just because something is written down does not make it a good idea. Just because something is in an official WotC module doesn't mean that people should be lemmings and believe "yup, yup, that's a good idea". Having this dragon in the module was a terrible idea on their point. Your idea is a lot better than their idea (but still not good).

Maybe the people you play with are like that. The people I play with are universally lovely and open to imaginative solutions.

The vast majority have never been like that. But then again, people are people. I have no idea about Nemio's players, but he did say that he was a new DM, so I wouldn't suggest anything that might tick his players off or might alienate them from the game. Or even might teach them that the way to fix a PC death or a TPK is to reset the clock.

Sure is. And I like my fun better than your fun.

As you should.

I could go on about how your ideas are lousy, but that seems pointless. I'm really not interested in your opinion. I've read a bunch of your posts today, and it turns out that I disagree with you on pretty much everything. My suggestions were for [MENTION=6775814]Nemio[/MENTION] (who asked for suggestions), and he/she can take or leave them.

I did not say that your post was lousy. I said that one idea was lousy. I posted to let Nemio know that he shouldn't listen to your advice on this one idea.

New DMs shouldn't have to walk a tightrope of making sure their players do a few set things right, or we reset the adventure.

That's just bad advice to a new DM. It's something he might experiment with later on when he is comfortable, but it's not something he should try out of the box. YMMV.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My tip is that in general you don't let your players know that. It's your job to run the game, not to run the players.

If GMs spent one tenth of the time they spend worrying about hypothetical problems, on instead trying to run a better game, they would not have player issues. You need to go out and run the best game you can, make it memorable, worry about what your NPCs are going to do and how they are trying to do it. Be positive, be enthusiastic, be fair.

This advice seems patently self-contradictory, to me, at least.

It certainly isn't "fair" on any normal level to funnel the PCs into taking on an opponent which will certainly kill them, with friendly NPCs egging them on, and with one PC whose very nature makes him pretty much set on that course.

This isn't a "hypothetical problem", and expecting to "not have player issue" just because you "didn't worry" and just "ran a better game", when you lead them directly into a TPK is completely laughable. If you have a really positive, fun, game, with good DMing, fairness, players having a good time, and them BLAM the PCs all get vaporized in a single round by an opponent they were pointed towards and told to kill, it's going to hurt. It'll hurt highly experienced players less, but even then, it will seriously damage their trust in you, and respect for you, because it's basically a "GOTCHA!". With new-to-RPGs players, I seriously doubt they'd even keep playing.

Hitcher's advice offers some mitigation for that kind of behaviour, but it requires a lot of buy-in, and is likely to work well only with experienced players.

Now, let's be clear, TPKs aren't necessarily trust-destroyers or game-enders - but TPKs you leads the PCs directly into, and where the PCs are set up so they will want to engage, and where they have no clear way to know "This is a terrible idea", THOSE, those ARE trust-destroyers, those ARE game-enders.

Personally I think RPing the dragon out so it doesn't want to fight is the best of both worlds. Green Dragons are liars and love lies more than anything else in the world (including common sense - like most Chromatic Dragons, they are basically a living metaphor for sin - which totally breaks down if we look at Metallic Dragons of course, because they completely fail as metaphors for virtues, at least, historically they have, but anyway!), so they are naturally going to want to have their fun that way. During that time you can emphasize the size and power of the beast, and it's likely things will calm down.

 

[Nemio]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I will be playing with a new group in a few months time and hope that they will want to continue so the dragon issue will probably not come up anytime soon or at all.

If they want to keep on playing then it will probably be once in one or two months time.
I imagine that if they end up getting a TPK at the very end they will be gutted.

I've thought about rewinding the game, divine intervention, fudging rolls, etc. but I want to find the right balance between having them fear death in the game but without having to killing them all.

I'm not even sure what to do when one PC gets killed by the way.
Does the Starter Set have any advice on that? (Grr, why does my order only arrive on Friday ?)

I like the idea of showing how powerful the dragon is ingame.
Perhaps they can see him using his breath attack on a goblin patrol or on the zombies.

Having the dragon initiate a conversation is another good one.
The goal of the Folkhero is the slay or drive off the dragon so fighting is not needed.
Any tips on what the dragon might want to achieve by lying and/or deceiving?
Does it want more gold?
Does it want an even better lair? Cragmaw Castle perhaps?
Why would it leave freely?

I wonder why no advice on this was put in the Starter Set.
Your ideas are the things I need help with as a new DM

 

[ExploderWizard]

And if the players in a given group reply "No, this game sucks. Let's go do something else".

Not all players are the same. I've seen players get mad over the most trivial of things.

D&D is not a "I am the Dungeon Master and I am here to teach you things." type of game.

D&D is a game to have fun.


I'm also a big fan of what happens, happens. This set back the clock entitlement crap is for the birds.

The Dragon is a flawed design of the module. Fix it, one way or another.

I don't think the presence of the dragon itself is flawed design, but some of the circumstances surrounding it, such as the RP hook to slay it, really is. The druid's requirement that the PCs get the dragon to leave is also perfectly fine as an adventure goal.

The only part I have a problem with is that the adventure doesn't even hint that there may be a non-violent way to get the dragon to leave. The only option provided is to beat it down to a certain HP total. Not only is that extremely stupid for a party of that level to try it is also BORING. The dragon is a frightening combatant but it IS young and inexperienced. Clever adventurers may think of a way to get it to leave without having to fight.

Dragons like flattery, and young ones are more egotistical and likely to succumb to it than older and wiser wyrms. What if the PCs clear out Craigmaw castle and convince the dragon to move there instead? Surely a castle is more befitting a lair for so magnificent a dragon than some glorified tree house? What happens when the dragon gets older and can't fit in that puny little lair? Certainly such an awesome dragon will amass much treasure, the castle will provide ample space to store it.

Heck the PCs can tell the dragon that they cleared out the castle JUST FOR HIM!

A good adventure will provide difficult obstacles and multiple ways to overcome them. This particular challenge only offered combat as a solution. I can roll with it and offer other options as an experienced DM. The intended audience for this adventure may not know other options exist.

 

[The Hitcher]

Just TELL the players how hard the dragon is!!!

Yep, this. My "rewind" option that is knotting so many knickers was offered as an alternative for people who have a problem with just being straight-up with the players. Apparently those same people have problems with lots of stuff.

I feel like this would work about four zillion times better with experienced RPG players who are merely new to 5E or new to FRPGs/D&D (who will likely laugh and agree), than actual RPG newbies, who I suspect are going to be pretty gutted, emotionally, by their PCs being suddenly, unavoidably (from their perspective) dead, and see what you're offering here as rather "cheap" (esp. if they were really roleplaying their little hearts out).

That's a possibility (depending on the players). It could also work great (depending on the players). I appreciate you not using the word "lousy" in your criticism.

YMMV.

You better believe it varies.

 

[KarinsDad]

Personally I think RPing the dragon out so it doesn't want to fight is the best of both worlds. Green Dragons are liars and love lies more than anything else in the world (including common sense - like most Chromatic Dragons, they are basically a living metaphor for sin - which totally breaks down if we look at Metallic Dragons of course, because they completely fail as metaphors for virtues, at least, historically they have, but anyway!), so they are naturally going to want to have their fun that way. During that time you can emphasize the size and power of the beast, and it's likely things will calm down.

I think this is the second best idea. The problem is, things might calm down, and then again, they might not. There is sometimes that wild card (chaotic in real life) player in a group and if he is playing the archer, then look out.

Hence, I think the best idea is to water down the Dragon until it is at the very top of what PCs are capable of defeating if they get lucky and then add your idea here. The players do not need to know the Dragon's stats and abilities and hit dice, but if one player does decide to roleplay his PC to kill this Dragon, then the DM isn't suddenly in an *ah, crap* moment.

 

[Rhenny]

The remarks from stevelabny are my thoughts exactly.
What makes it worse are the flaws of the folkhero PC, so if they RP him correctly he will be too arrogant to believe failure is an option.

Not only that, the players themselves might think it is possible.
They will probably have the videogame reaction of "Well, if it's there then it means that we can beat it."
I know that they should change this feeling but waiting for a TPK and then saying "Well, now you've learned." isn't going to make for happy players I think.

The dragon will probably kill them in round one so they won't have an oppurtunity to flee.
And even if they could then I think it would be a big letdown for the player of the Folkhero PC to be the only one with a goal that he/she can't really accomplish.

Ugh, this one is going to give me a lot of headache I'm afraid.

Any tips for a new DM?
How do you let your players know in general that they shouldn't really fight a powerful monster (yet) ?

I'd make sure the other players/PCs in the party know how foolish it would be to attack the dragon. Then, if they ever meet it, it will be the other players' responsibility to restrain the fighter. I think it could be a really interesting moment. If the Dragon sees this, who knows, he may become interested in the strange behavior of the humanoids. It could lead to interesting roleplaying.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's a possibility (depending on the players). It could also work great (depending on the players). I appreciate you not using the word "lousy" in your criticism.

That's cause RE is a lot more PC than I am. I call a lousy idea lousy, I sometimes don't look for a nicer way to say it. RE is also a lot more patient pointing out the weaknesses in an idea. I apologize if I offended you.

Game on.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Any tips on what the dragon might want to achieve by lying and/or deceiving?
Does it want more gold?
Does it want an even better lair? Cragmaw Castle perhaps?

Green Dragons love lying. They will lie for the sake of lying. For the fun of it. So they don't need to actually achieve anything.

However, they do like some things:

1) Getting information on the area they are in, especially the local political situation.

2) Getting involved in intrigues and the like, usually via proxies. They love to set something in motion and watch it happen.

3) Acquiring servants or making people do their bidding, even if they don't know they are (this is a good tactic for delaying the PCs until they are higher level, I suspect).

4) Yes, gold and/or a nicer lair would both likely appeal, but they love natural lairs more than castles or the like - forests, swamps, jungles that sort of thing.

One might try some sort of particularly ludicrous lie on the PCs, like that he's a transformed prince or something, and trying to control his dragonly urges, and if only they could go and do this quest for him, to get this item to help turn him back, he'd be able to reward them! You would be surprised by how likely the shiny gold coins will be to cloud the minds of even normally-sensible PCs.

 

[The Hitcher]

I'm not even sure what to do when one PC gets killed by the way.
Does the Starter Set have any advice on that?

This is a really good question that I asked a couple of weeks back and no-one answered (I also haven't received my set yet).

I like the idea of showing how powerful the dragon is ingame.
Perhaps they can see him using his breath attack on a goblin patrol or on the zombies.

This is a good idea, but don't underestimate just being straight up with players. RPG players are not traditionally good at picking up on subtlety. They may just take displays of strength as encouragement to go on the offensive. If they know for sure that the fight is too hard for them, then you can work with them to create a cool scene that avoids it.

The only part I have a problem with is that the adventure doesn't even hint that there may be a non-violent way to get the dragon to leave. The only option provided is to beat it down to a certain HP total. Not only is that extremely stupid for a party of that level to try it is also BORING.

This is a valid criticism. I suspect the reason is purely the limited page count.

I also think it pays not to underestimate new players. Many new players will be MORE cautious about getting into dangerous situations than experienced players, rather than less. They're playing this new thing that has no obvious walls to butt up against. They have no understanding of the limits of what can and can't happen. If I'm in that situation, I tread very carefully.