D&D 5E Lost Mine of Phandelver - comments and complaints after read-through (spoilers)

[Blackbrrd]

Just TELL the players how hard the dragon is!!!

Call it a "passive Nature check" if you want to dress it up in pretty narrative. Maybe if they roll a decent Nature or Arcana result they get a few specifics, too. If they're bad at Nature make sure the druid NPC spells it out for them.

But definitely make sure they know how hard it is even if you have to tell them point-blank "yeah it's a level 8 monster that will wipe the floor with you guys." This meta-game talk breaks immersion a bit, but trust me, your players will appreciate it. Heck, turn it around and make them figure out how the PCs know this.

A game is a series of interesting decisions. Deciding how to handle Venomfang is way more interesting if the players know how tough he is.

I don't find giving this kind of information meta-gamey at all. The characters probably know of the reputation of dragons as murder-machines, while the players might think it's just a game and everything is level-appropriate. I don't know how the dragon is presented in the module, but the main error seems to be that it doesn't talk about what they characters would know about dragons.

I think it's important in an pen-and-paper RPG to have problems the characters can't solve by pure force. Otherwise, it's much too like a computer game. I even like the part where one character has a backstory that more or less gives him a death wish. It shouldn't result in a TPK, but in an interesting role-playing situation where the other characters tells him where to stuff it with his frontal assault plan.

D&D is mostly about cooperation within the party, but I think it's makes it much more interesting if one PC's agenda differs from anothers in a way that leads up to a confrontation* and some serious decision making. It really makes the game feel more real.

*or some sneaky manipulation from one of the PC's, making the rest of the party follow the plan he wants.

 

[The Hitcher]

I have the following text from the SRD.
Is the description about right?
Green dragons initiate fights with little or no provocation...

That sounds good as a guide, but remember that dragons are also individuals with their own personalities and agendas. I've played D&D on and off for 20 years, but I couldn't tell you the first thing about the differences between different coloured dragons (other than their breath weapons).

I understand that running the game for the first time is intimidating, and it's great to have some guidance. But you won't remember it all in the heat of the moment anyway. If you're at a loss, just go with your gut and accept that you'll mess some stuff up while you're learning. The players know you're new to it and they won't expect perfection.

 

[fba827]

You can also describe lots of bodies and bones littering the floor at the entrance. Set the scene that something deadly is beyond.

 

[Blackbrrd]

You can also describe lots of bodies and bones littering the floor at the entrance. Set the scene that so etching deadly is beyond.

Sound advice!

In 4e I often use encounters that are out of the PC's league. When I do, they come up with something to avoid a TPK. It's probably a bit harder in 5e, since combat lasts fewer rounds and you therefore have less time to see death coming.

I think that any adventure should have one or more encounters that you can't win with brute force. It does require that you as a DM gives the necessary hints when you can, and that the players are aware of the play style. Also, when the PC's come up with a cool plan, try to say yes. It encourages out-of-the-box thinking, even if it can be a bit cheesy at times.

 

[drjones]

The remarks from stevelabny are my thoughts exactly.
What makes it worse are the flaws of the folkhero PC, so if they RP him correctly he will be too arrogant to believe failure is an option.

But that is ok. It is alright for a player to want to do something really dangerous or stupid. Almost every game I have ever played in has had the barbarian who wants to kick every door marked DANGER down. But the important thing is the rest of the players are not required to follow them off the plank. That conflict drives drama or at least humor.

In this case I would give warnings that make sense for the characters. Nature or history checks to see how much they know about dragons and how incredibly dangerous they are. Any interesting attempt at diplomacy by the PCs (while not being threatening) I would engage with. The dragon is young, arrogant and greedy so he does not have to make the right decision at every moment and will be amused that anyone has the balls to walk in and appreciate his magnificence. Just because using his BW is a good tactical move does not mean he would not like to claw-claw-bite the snotty human who challenged him and gulp him down in front of his friends. Hell, if he does not leave any survivors who is going to tell of his amazing deeds?

Anyway, if all that fails and they all get croaked I might ask them if they would like to rewind a bit and try again now that the players have learned a little lesson about the danger of Dragons, and of Dungeons and Dragons.

I will agree that all that could have been spelled out better in the adventure for new DMs.

 

[Waxfire]

I agree that more info on the dragon encounter is warranted, but reviewing it, my bigger concern is if you look at the map, Thundertreee is back by Neverwinter, so really s more of a Neverwinter area site, not a Phandalin area site. My group wouldn't be heading there unless going back to Neverwinter.

Not the end of the world, but makes it a non-encounter to me unless you move it closer to Phandalin.

Waxfire

 

[77IM]

I don't have the starter set, so my speculation could be less valuable than others', but here is a thought:
Maybe having a TPK (or at least a good chance of one) at the end of the adventure was a design decision by WOTC.. After all, there doesn't appear to be anywhere to go after you finish the starter set.. Tyranny of Dragons starts at first level, not 5th where the starter set leaves off.. I know WOTC said there would be some organic way to transition a campaign from the Starter to Tyranny, but I'm sure most people who buy Tyranny are gonna wanna use the whole adventure, starting at level one. Maybe deep down, WOTC wants us to play through the starter set and learn the game, then start all over again. And I don't think I'd be opposed to that..

My conspiracy theory is that they did it to create a shared experience across play groups. They probably did research that shows some of the most memorable and talked-about portions of older adventures involved horribly imbalanced encounters and TPKs. By including such a pitfall in the starter set, they're hoping to make LMoP a new classic, with people standing around at GenCon trading stories about how Venomfang routed the party and only 2 PCs made it out alive, etc.

 

[Chimpy]

My idea is that the dragon has been weakened by poisoning by the druid and only deals half (or less) damage. The dragon doesn't want to fight and tries to persuade the PCs to leave it alone, or to even to get them to do something for it. The party might want to intimidate the dragon with a show of strength, and the dragon might be amenable to taking a bribe in exchange for leaving the area.

 

[Nemio]

I got the Starter Set yesterday and went over the dragon part.

It seems to point towards fighting it, no RP advice, no personality description, personal goals, etc.
So you also don't know how it reacts to the Dragon Cultists who will try to offer you to the Dragon if you encounter them first.

You get more XP if you kill it than if you chase it away though it says that it is unlikely that a low lvl party will be able to slay it.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

For those who don't know, a few more ideas about revising/making sense of the dragon encounter are in this thread.