D&D 5E Lost Mine of Phandelver - comments and complaints after read-through (spoilers)

[KarinsDad]

More importantly, you gave me an idea for my forum avatar!

Scary.

 

[Andor]

Or, as a total alternative: don't do any of the above. Keep the dragon on the hush hush, and let them walk into the trap. Assuming they get wiped (which they might not - stranger things have happened), then say:

"And now you know not to meddle with dragons. Anyone keen to reload your saved game?". Let them rewind the encounter and make a different choice. The Starter Set is supposed to be a learning experience. They've now learned their lesson, so where's the harm in undoing it?

This idea caught a lot of flak, but I think the only real problem with it is that you presented it in a jarringly meta-game presentation. It's an immersion breaker.

I haven't read the module yet (although I will soon as I just offered to run it for my group) but prior to the dragon they meet a druid of undefined powers who has an agenda to get rid of the dragon, yes?

So use his lack of definition to cover whatever fix you need in the aftermath of the dragon encounter, you just have to set it up first.

Before he sends them off he offers to perfrom a ritual to help them. They sit in a circle, he chants, purple smoke appears, they walk off to the encounter. You are now prepped for all eventualities.

TPK? They wake up back in the circle surrounded by purple smoke and the Druid asks "So? Did the divinatory trance show you how to beat the dragon?"

Half the party dead but the rest surrvived? The bodies *POOF* into purple smoke and can be found alive and shaken back at the Druids circle, apparently it was a contingency spell.

They succeed? Either pass the Druid off as crazy or he can brag about how his magic was the only way they were able to defeat such a beast.

No meta-gaming required, no immersion shattered.

 

[the Jester]

This idea caught a lot of flak, but I think the only real problem with it is that you presented it in a jarringly meta-game presentation. It's an immersion breaker.

I haven't read the module yet (although I will soon as I just offered to run it for my group) but prior to the dragon they meet a druid of undefined powers who has an agenda to get rid of the dragon, yes?

So use his lack of definition to cover whatever fix you need in the aftermath of the dragon encounter, you just have to set it up first.

Before he sends them off he offers to perfrom a ritual to help them. They sit in a circle, he chants, purple smoke appears, they walk off to the encounter. You are now prepped for all eventualities.

Actually, I rather like this, although not exactly as you depict it.

I like the idea that the druid performs a ritual that allows the pcs to have a 'dream battle' or maybe 'future sight' or something that lets them fight the dragon "not for real" and feel out its capabilities. You don't need to pull your punches on that one!

Then they can make an informed decision about how to approach it.

Hmm...

 

[Savage Wombat]

Thread suddenly reminded me that the last time I TPK'd a party through a mis-placed monster, it was also a green dragon.

It was some old 2nd ed module where the party was supposed to explore a forest, and the writer "thoughtfully" made the map colorful by including, on the player's sheet, some locations that were dangerous and to be avoided. The intent was that the characters follow the maze of trails - my PCs, of course, ignored these and said "well, we head towards this location" and marched to their doom.

I had a discussion with the PCs about how I'd screwed up (not indicating through description the danger they were in) and rewound the game as described earlier in the thread.

 

[KarinsDad]

TPK? They wake up back in the circle surrounded by purple smoke and the Druid asks "So? Did the divinatory trance show you how to beat the dragon?"

Half the party dead but the rest surrvived? The bodies *POOF* into purple smoke and can be found alive and shaken back at the Druids circle, apparently it was a contingency spell.

They succeed? Either pass the Druid off as crazy or he can brag about how his magic was the only way they were able to defeat such a beast.

I am ok with the first one here, but if 3rd level PCs get into a fight with a 16 HD dragon, the third one here will not happen (this dragon does 42 average points of damage with his breath weapon which will either kill or knock out some of the 3rd level PCs, even if they make their save, it's ridiculously overpowered). If I used this, I would have the second one resolve just like the first one, it was the Druid dream smoke for everyone.

I like the first one. I'll have to use that sometime in the future as a hook into waiting several levels before taking on the BBEG.

But I don't especially like it for this type of module since there would probably be quite a few encounters (maybe 4 to 6) for which the clock would set back. Rather, I would prefer to use it in a situation where it's done immediately before the BBEG type encounter (or possibly with one or two encounters before that).

 

[77IM]

Ooh! Ooh! How about this:

The druid says, "Well if you can beat me, then you're ready for the dragon." Then he wild shapes into a young green dragon! But with only 40 hit points, and no breath weapon (so, not powerful enough to beat the dragon on his own). If the PCs knock the 40 HP off him, he turns back and ends the fight and rewards them with a couple potions of resist poison.

...OK, so this idea has some major plot holes (like for a druid to turn into a dragon he'd be like epic level and could just fry his foes) but it would still be cool.

 

[The Hitcher]

I really love the lore but this makes it quite intimidating for a new guy.
By doing all this double checking to play it "correctly" I'm already doing way more than someone who just wants to pick up the Starter Set and play it by the book which shouldn't be the case.
The book should cover everything so noone misses out.

The lesson here is that there is no such thing as the "correct" way to play D&D. Never be afraid to change something from what's on the page! Do it in advance or do it in the moment. If it doesn't work, then you've learned something.

This idea caught a lot of flak, but I think the only real problem with it is that you presented it in a jarringly meta-game presentation. It's an immersion breaker.

I haven't read the module yet (although I will soon as I just offered to run it for my group) but prior to the dragon they meet a druid of undefined powers who has an agenda to get rid of the dragon, yes?

So use his lack of definition to cover whatever fix you need in the aftermath of the dragon encounter, you just have to set it up first.

Your idea is cute, but you can tie yourself in knots setting up stuff like that, and it's just not necessary (unless it's a really cool scene that adds to the story in its own right).

I'm of the school that thinks the magic circle is sturdier than all that. If you need to talk in the meta about the game, take a time out for a moment and have a chat. Tell them how hard the dragon will be to kill and suggest they take a different tack. It's really not that hard to jump back into the fiction. You're jumping in and out all the time when you're talking about hit points and skill checks, anyway.

A lot of nonsense is talked about immersion. If you can talk in the abstract about the rules, you can do the same with the story.

And if you need to retcon to make the story not suck, just do it. If you want to get cute about it, set up a meta frame story for the entire game as a story being told around a table at a tavern. If you need to change something, you can just say "wait, that's not how it happened...". It's a cheesy trope, but that's what D&D is built out of, anyway.

 

[Grossout]

I don't have the starter set, so my speculation could be less valuable than others', but here is a thought:
Maybe having a TPK (or at least a good chance of one) at the end of the adventure was a design decision by WOTC.. After all, there doesn't appear to be anywhere to go after you finish the starter set.. Tyranny of Dragons starts at first level, not 5th where the starter set leaves off.. I know WOTC said there would be some organic way to transition a campaign from the Starter to Tyranny, but I'm sure most people who buy Tyranny are gonna wanna use the whole adventure, starting at level one. Maybe deep down, WOTC wants us to play through the starter set and learn the game, then start all over again. And I don't think I'd be opposed to that..

 

[Nemio]

The lesson here is that there is no such thing as the "correct" way to play D&D. Never be afraid to change something from what's on the page! Do it in advance or do it in the moment. If it doesn't work, then you've learned something.

What you say is true but very intimidating and scary for new DM's like me that picked up this Starter Set.
When I start out I'd like to be able to follow some guidelines or proposals in the book and be able to trust that this advice will prepare me for most possible circumstances.

I would like to see the pages with my own eyes to see how it is described but it seems that this is missing for the Dragon encounter.

I would find it very strange that no possible diplomatic solution is provided.

More than likely I will change it so that the Druid still asks them to chase the dragon off but that using force will probably result in them getting killed. He can then give them some info about how green dragons behave.

I have the following text from the SRD.
Is the description about right?
Green dragons initiate fights with little or no provocation, picking on creatures of any size. If the target is intriguing or seems formidable, the dragon stalks the creature to determine the best time to strike and the most appropriate tactics to use. If the target appears weak, the dragon makes its presence known quickly—it enjoys evoking terror. Sometimes the dragon elects to control a humanoid creature through intimidation and suggestion. Green dragons especially like to question adventurers to learn more about their society and abilities, what is going on in the countryside, and if there is treasure nearby.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Green_Dragon

 

[Nemio]

I don't have the starter set, so my speculation could be less valuable than others', but here is a thought:
Maybe having a TPK (or at least a good chance of one) at the end of the adventure was a design decision by WOTC.. After all, there doesn't appear to be anywhere to go after you finish the starter set.. Tyranny of Dragons starts at first level, not 5th where the starter set leaves off.. I know WOTC said there would be some organic way to transition a campaign from the Starter to Tyranny, but I'm sure most people who buy Tyranny are gonna wanna use the whole adventure, starting at level one. Maybe deep down, WOTC wants us to play through the
starter set and learn the game, then start all over again. And I don't think I'd be opposed to that..

It might take my players a year realtime until we get there.
Killing my players at the very end will not make them happy

You could start your own campaign or start the Tyranny of Dragons adventure.
They said you can jump in at any time and that players will simply get through the first portion faster.
But that's not bad, right? Makes them feel like the powerful heroes they've become

Edit: Or by then they might have the desire to start their own PC from scratch which is a good time for that.
Then their former heroes can live happily ever after and they might even perform a small cameo.