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Interesting Decisions vs Wish Fulfillment (from Pulsipher)

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
The thing is that sport is accurate. War isn't. So-called Combat as War is a cross between a big game safari and an obstacle course. With a little shooting back - but there's shooting back in CaS.

Well, that's the difference between treating a conflict as war and as sport. In war, you want to minimize the shots coming at you. The perfect battle is one in which you win but aren't shot at at all. And if you have to use unsportsmanlike methods or overwhelming force to achieve that, so what?
 

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Well, that's the difference between treating a conflict as war and as sport. In war, you want to minimize the shots coming at you. The perfect battle is one in which you win but aren't shot at at all. And if you have to use unsportsmanlike methods or overwhelming force to achieve that, so what?

Which makes it different from a sport how? Sport is not about giving the other side a sporting chance. It's about testing yourself and your team. And the professional foul is a part of sport.
 


dd.stevenson

Super KY
I'm having trouble coming up with a simple metaphor to argue with this. Best I've got is - the intent of CaW would be more akin to a big game safari/obstacle course where the hunters can decide that burning down the jungle might be the best option.
Combat as Conquista :)
 
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Sport is too about giving the other side a sporting chance. I can't put another 15 guys on my side,

In short sport has a GM and rules. That doesn't mean that within the rules (i.e. the rules of the RPG and the setting rules) you don't try to crush the opposition.

and I'm not allowed to beat you up in the locker room.

So Combat as War is in fact Professional Wrestling with only a little less Kayfabe? OK, so I'm being slightly flippant there.
 


Libramarian

Adventurer
I don't see how soccer could be described as CaW - since your team doesn't have the option of, say, ambushing the opposing team at Hooters the night before and beating the stuffing out of them. Or hiring fans in the stadium to take potshots at the goalie.

What I'm getting at is that the difference between these two types of games is not really about the associated fiction of the game moves. That's a red herring I think. It's about how transparent the consequences are for the decisions players make.

One can imagine Combat-as-Sport about ambushing the other team and hiring fans to take potshots. This is what refluffing powers and/or using pg 42 in 4e is like. You can describe your move however you like, but it's still Combat-as-Sport because you know what the consequences are going to be. There's no "going with your gut" involved.

A game with less predictable consequences tends to snowball into dramatic showdowns, like scoring chances in soccer, showdowns in poker, or save-or-dies in D&D. Some people really like this, and some people deride this as 20 minutes of fun in 4 hours, which I can understand. (I think you can fine-tune things to maybe 10 minutes of fun every hour, but you're still going to have the same basic rollercoaster dynamic).

Coming up with crazy schemes (eg [MENTION=55680]Daztur[/MENTION]'s example from the original thread with the bees) is definitely fun when it works, but not so much when your plan tumbles like a house of cards because of something you didn't expect. Whether or not you like this depends on whether the fun outweighs the frustration.

I think a great test for whether or not one would like classic D&D is how they feel about poker (I would say soccer but the poor physical fitness of the typical gamer is going to be a massive confounding factor there). Classic D&D is really a lot like talky fantasy poker. It's a gambling game where you nudge the odds in your favor by convincing other people to imagine things the way you're imagining them. I find this very entertaining (especially as DM) but I don't think it's a "perfect" game; I can understand not liking it.

As for how this ties into Interesting Decisions vs. Wish Fulfilment, I do think there is a connection. In CaS game you can play in more of a Wish Fulfillment mindset because you're not risking as much at each decision. You can take plays off to goof around, as it were. In a CaW there's a lot more pressure to be in win-at-all-costs mode all the time, because you don't want to be the person who drops the ball when it turns out that that decision was actually extremely important.
 

What I'm getting at is that the difference between these two types of games is not really about the associated fiction of the game moves. That's a red herring I think. It's about how transparent the consequences are for the decisions players make.

I don't know that I feel that your post is really about CaW/CaS as I see it. But I agree that your post, in itself, is a very interesting point.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip

A game with less predictable consequences tends to snowball into dramatic showdowns, like scoring chances in soccer, showdowns in poker, or save-or-dies in D&D. Some people really like this, and some people deride this as 20 minutes of fun in 4 hours, which I can understand. (I think you can fine-tune things to maybe 10 minutes of fun every hour, but you're still going to have the same basic rollercoaster dynamic).


((Bold mine))
/snip.

This is where I disagree. Unpredictable consequences might snowball into dramatic showdowns, but, because they're unpredictable, most often won't. After all, "dramatic showdown" is just one of several scenarios and frequently not even the most likely since as soon as they become most likely, it's not longer CaW but CaS. That's what CaS is supposed to do after all. The fact that you point to save or die as dramatic I think points to a basic disconnect in what people consider dramatic as well.

And, as far as interesting choice play goes, save or die is the antithesis of this. There are no interesting choices to be made with SoD. It's pure luck. Unless, of course, you start signposting the encounter (the medusa forgets to clean up her statuary, lots of dead bodies with horrified faces and no wounds means bodak ahead) but, then, now you're no longer CaW but CaS because you are artificially balancing the encounter. The only reason to signpost the encounter is the presence of SoD, since we don't actually bother to signpost an encounter with, say, a manticore.
 

BryonD

Hero
This is where I disagree. Unpredictable consequences might snowball into dramatic showdowns, but, because they're unpredictable, most often won't.
".. for you." Right? :)

"For me" the value added is scores of time over the negatives. (year after year after year)
 

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