Pathfinder 1E poor party composition

[Latsu]

I'm running a pathfinder game somewhat infrequently and I've run into a problem, the composition of the characters and the players playing each character is just bad

we have; a summoner who's eidolon is effective although the player feels like the actual character doesn't do much, a monk/inquisitor who is the melee tank (not including the eidolon) at the moment, fighter who uses a rifle mostly (I allowed guns, the campaign is a war campaign with them as a unit) and is the secondary melee character, a gunslinger/warlord (third party class I believe) who can never remember his over powered buffs, a tengu sword using rogue (some racial variant) with twf, and a wizard (played by the most inept player) although magic jar and summoning ghouls has been surprisingly effective.

they are tenth level and they lack any sort of healing beyond the summoner healing her eidolon, the rogue has a mediocre use magic device so wands are out and no one wanted to invest in potions apparently

take for example the last fight they had, the rogue was on watch and the fighter was on overwatch from some small distance, surprise round the rogue goes from 57 hp to 2 in one shot, how may I ask can he be healed? he would have to sleep 5 nights to be fully healed correct?

beyond that, I've said that I'm not an optimizer but they haven't been playing as long as me (old group of friends, but they are new to game) they have a sub-par melee lead and took very generic feats (pointblank shot, precise shot) that make them better but in ranged combat they don't do that much damage

then there is the caster problem, the two casters are the least skilled players. the summoner has haste and slow so she can buff and debuff but beyond that she has yet to use a spell effectively, the wizard on the other hand has good spells but doesn't use them for some reason (fly, invisibility greater for the rogue perhaps? dominate person)

I guess the question I have is how can u mitigate this without dropping the ECL of the party down one or two? they don't do any real damage individually (they seem to win fights through numbers) I could add more enemies that are weaker so that they can kill things without the whole party attacking the same guy but then I have difficulty making those memorable encounters where you know that death is right in front of you and you still charge in knowing that if you don't the wizard may not have time to seal the gate to hell and stuff like that because they don't have that fighter that can do that
oh and saves are in the toilet for them, average 8.5ish for fort and reflex and will save averaged at 7.something so they will fail many of those which once again bars many good mid level monsters.

 

[JoshTheBlack]

This may seem harsh, but my first GM taught our group of new players a harsh lesson in much the same way. I would recommend trying to kill them off, maybe 1 or 2 per session. Have them roll new characters, stressing the importance of having healing options and party rolls. Even harsher, attempt a TPK early in the session and spend the rest of it creating new players, taking care to point out important things that they might be missing.

 

[Latsu]

I think the rogue will die next session just because I don't see everyone wanting to spend a week so he can heal in a cave while trying to avoid random encounters, I could force a TPK and strong-arm them into making more diverse and skilled characters but I emphasized that prior to these characters being made in the first place and I don't see them collaborating any more then they did before.
also there is a cohort in the group that I forgot, worst barbarian ever
which makes 7 characters, with no cleric, oracle, druid. even a paladin or bard would be helpful

probably have to go with the TPK idea honestly, situation doesn't look good

 

[JoshTheBlack]

Maybe with some harsh deadly combat, they'll pay a little more attention to your suggestions. How is it even possible for a barbarian to suck? The last one I saw created by first time barbarian had over 100hp when raging by 5th level and was doing an average of 70hp damage per round. Heck, he started out killing everything before anyone else could act.

 

[Latsu]

its a cohort, which I know doesn't doom it from the get go but he has poor abilities and the player is going to replace him when he gets the opportunity, its also possible that there just haven't been enough big melees for him to really shine in and like I said the players didn't delve too much into combining feats and class abilities effectively, so yeah somehow a 8th level barbarian cohort can suck against CR 6 or 7 creatures

 

[Kinak]

Why are we ruling out dropping the CR? I mean, I know you want to run epic encounters, but that's a question of tone and setup, not CR.

If your players are really good optimizers, you'll end up running CR+4 encounters regularly to make them sweat. If you'd do that, why wouldn't you ease the CR down for a group that sucks at optimizing?

Either way, you should probably stop focusing on the encounters you'd design for the party you wished you had and start designing them for the party you actually have. Levels 6-8 are plenty heroic and I'm sure they're ready to take on those challenges.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

How did the players reach such a high-level without knowing the rules? And why are new players playing such high-complexity classes like the summoner?

You need to teach them the basics, out of the game.

 

[Crothian]

Is the group having fun?

None of the other things matter if they are. If they are not having fun then see if they want to swap out some or all the characters for something more effective. Don't kill the PCs to teach a lesson that's not going to solve the problem.

If they are having fun then a cleric NPC is a simple answer. Or tailor adventures more to what they do excel at. There is nothing wrong with this composition of characters as long as the players enjoy it.

 

[N'raac]

Well, at least Crothian sees it!

Why does everyone want to jump all over the players for playing the characters they want to play? No one wants to play a healer, so they have no healer. What's the big deal? Maybe more enemies should have a bunch of healing potions in their possession. That sends the signal these are pretty common (so easily purchased) while also giving them some short-term ability to heal up. Perhaps they find an INT-enhancing item whose skill happens to be UMD - oh look, they can use a Wand of CLW now.

That NPC cleric designed solely around healing who ducks for cover if combat breaks out is certainly another option, but my first choice would not be adding another character to an already large group. But then, if the premise is that they are a wartime unit, why can't the Brass assign them a medic?

Even simpler, let them find a bolt hole where they can heal up without being ground by wandering monsters that do nothing to advance the game, just punish the players for not running in the style you want to force on them. It strikes me as odd that so many people pile on to the players because someone "has to" play a healer, whether they want to or not. This is a fun pastime, or at least it is supposed to be. Why not look for solutions that let the players play the characters they want, rather than killing off the PC's, then browbeating them to make new characters that conform to the party structure you think would be appropriate, rather than what they want to play?

 

[billd91]

Why does everyone want to jump all over the players for playing the characters they want to play? No one wants to play a healer, so they have no healer. What's the big deal? Maybe more enemies should have a bunch of healing potions in their possession. That sends the signal these are pretty common (so easily purchased) while also giving them some short-term ability to heal up. Perhaps they find an INT-enhancing item whose skill happens to be UMD - oh look, they can use a Wand of CLW now.

While this is true, I have to ask another question that relates to all of this. Are they complaining about their woes? About how ineffective they sometimes are? That they need more healing? If so, are they doing anything about it?
It's generally good advice to design the game for the players you've got, not the ones you want. But the players need to put in some effort too if they're seeing problems. If they aren't doing anything to adjust to the problems they are facing, they may need help recognizing they can (and should) do that. Ask them if they are seeing problems, ask them if they understand ways they can deal with these problems, and make it possible for them. One character has a barbarian cohort and is interesting in changing it - suggest he recruit a healer.

But then, if the premise is that they are a wartime unit, why can't the Brass assign them a medic?

Also a good option.
I expect my players to adapt to problems they encounter. If they're week, in some area, they need to find a way to improve it or continue to suffer from that vulnerability. Either option is fine with me, in the end. But I also make sure they know that I'm open to lots of solutions. Switch PCs, multiclass, hire an NPC/gain a cohort, commission specific magic items, whatever.