D&D 5E 5E psionics

[77IM]

It would be fairly easy to create psion as a subclass of sorcerer. Mechanically, spells known and sorcery points and metamagic already "feel" very psionic, so you'd just need to make sure the spell list was mostly spells that feel very psionic (many enchantments, some of the simpler divinations, transmutations, evocations and abjurations).

I'm not saying that WotC should do this, just that anyone who's looking to start a campaign soon and really wants psionics could fake it prett well by re-skinning the sorcerer.

 

[dream66_]

It would be fairly easy to create psion as a subclass of sorcerer. Mechanically, spells known and sorcery points and metamagic already "feel" very psionic, so you'd just need to make sure the spell list was mostly spells that feel very psionic (many enchantments, some of the simpler divinations, transmutations, evocations and abjurations).

I'm not saying that WotC should do this, just that anyone who's looking to start a campaign soon and really wants psionics could fake it prett well by re-skinning the sorcerer.

Warlock works better Great Old One pact gets continual Telepathy at first level,

 

[Goemoe]

It would be fairly easy to create psion as a subclass of sorcerer. Mechanically, spells known and sorcery points and metamagic already "feel" very psionic, so you'd just need to make sure the spell list was mostly spells that feel very psionic (many enchantments, some of the simpler divinations, transmutations, evocations and abjurations).

I'm not saying that WotC should do this, just that anyone who's looking to start a campaign soon and really wants psionics could fake it prett well by re-skinning the sorcerer.

Why should they do this? It would have been easy to create a sorcerer as a subclass of the wizard and though they share some mechanics, they are no subclass of each other which is good. As psionics are not even magic, this would not even make sense. And if you think like Kobold who has an idealized vision of D&D psioncs, it would not fit the 5E design of making each class somewhat special.

As more accepting psionics, equals more sales. So first of all they have to remove those common misconceptions about Psionics.

Now, that you mention it, you are right. It is a common misconception about psioncs to make it something magical. It isn't. There might be some game designers who are to lazy to create a sound system of its own for psionics, but in theory psionics have absolutely nothing to do with magic. It might work out in a given system and I fear we will get it again for D&D, but the misconception is naming psionics as something magical which it isn't. Antimagic should not work for psionics and psionical nullfields do not hinder magic. And no this is no problem at all. It is just a matter of perception.

And I really don't care for sales, for power crunch or what other people think of it. When I say psionics are different, I talk about the fluff, the background of the stories and the interaction in possible games.

To me the biggest thing is the question of what do you want to get out of psionics. I see the argument of "If psionics is immune to dispell magic, why ever play a wizard."

Um, because wizards have fireball, and wish and time stop and big powerful magics.

This. A wizard, a martial fighter and a psion are just different trades, thats all. A wizard might find a way for his magic to interact with psionic affairs and vice versa, a fighter or monk might lern tricks to fight of mental manipulation be it magical or psionical, but they are all different trades.

If your campaign does not need psionics, don't use it. But those campaigns in which psionics make a difference don't need a third or fourth kind of magic (you could create rune magic, summoning circles, shadow magic or something other magical) they need psionics. It is no subsystem of something, psionics are a force of its own.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I'm just thinking aloud here, so there may be problems with this, but...

I like the idea of modeling psionics off a system people are familiar with (though it could be expanded beyond that point of familiarity), but not a system that makes it too similar to the others casters.

I'm thinking, rather than a spell list, combine the concepts of the warlock's invocations and the battlemaster's maneuvers. You start with basic powers that the psion can pick, which he can use at-will, or between rests, or whatever. The point is, no cost.

The psion also has "psychic dice" or something, like the battlemaster's superiority dice. The psion can choose to spend them when he uses one of those "free" powers. He can either just add the dice as extra damage or other effects, to make the basic power spiffier. Or, he can use them to unlock the more powerful, higher-leel versions of those powers. As he gains levels, he gains more dice, and he can spend more on a given power.

So basically, each power is actually a full range of powers, from weakest to strongest.

For example, maybe there's a basic power where the psion can briefly read the surface thoughts in someone's mind for a single turn. That's the free version. As he gains levels, the psion gains the ability to spend dice and use ever greater powers related to the first. Maybe if he spends one die, he can change the target's memory of the last minute. If he spends two, he can read much deeper thoughts and older memories. All the way up to the most powerful version, the equivalent of a 9th-level spell, which costs some obscene number of dice, but lets the psion completely rewrite the target's life, erasing all memories and replacing them with new, false ones that turn the target into a totally different person.

Like I said, just an example off the top of my head, but it preserves the "doesn't work quite like anyone else" that some people want in a psion, while using the skeleton of an already familiar system, so it's not odd enough to frighten huge numbers of players off.

 

[Goemoe]

Interesting, really. I just though it might be enough to add just one class of psion and offer additional psionic paths to existing classes like a fourth path for fighter, rogue and monk. 5E excels in my view in offering classes with a great range of in-class specialisation. With this I see no need in adding many new classes for psionics, but just one or two with useful psionics mechanics. Exsiting classes just get another class variant with some of these concepts and the psionic system would be intergrated without much work.

 

[77IM]

Why should they do this?

If by "they" you mean WotC, then they should not, as it would be super lame.

If by "they" you mean people who want to play psions right now today and don't want to wait for WotC, then they should do it because reskinning the sorcerer (or warlock) is easy and can be done with a few tweaks and still "feel" like a psion in play. Designing a whole class is time-consuming and error-prone and infeasible for many DMs.

Mouseferatu, what you are suggesting sounds a lot like the 4E psion, who had at-will powers that could be boosted by per-encounter points. I think it's a fine idea that would capture the feel of psionics better than reskinning spells.

 

[SkidAce]

I'm going to re-read Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook and see how well it converts to 5E.

 

[steeldragons]

I've put most of this in other "Psionics" thread...but since it's relevant I'mma post it agin.

First of all, I think some (if not most) of the issue folks have with Psionics comes from the name. "Psionics" is born from the idea of "Psychic-Bionics"...enhancing the brain to have these extra/psychic powers...using more than 10% of the human brain and all of that. It is a decidedly old school sci-fi pulp trope when the lines between sci-fi and fantasy were decidedly more blurred as genres than they are today. Giving the space-characters/alien races something that was magic-like with a "sci-fi-tific" explanation. Telepathy, Telekinesis, Clairvoyance are things that can all be and feel "real" is a sci-fi universe...but Magic Spells and Sorcery? That's just stuff and nonsense that people who didn't understand or know any better came up with to explain psychic phenomena. The "paranormal" is fine and dandy...the "supernatural" is bunk. Think the X-files vs. Supernatural...or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for that matter. Star Wars vs. Star Trek (or the current Marvel movies' explanations). The repeated trope that what appears to be "magic" is just technology we don't have/haven't figured out yet.

Changing the word/name in D&D, specifically, to simply "Psychic" and referring to "Psychic/Mental Powers" would do a LOT, I think, to mitigate a lot of the misunderstanding and displeasure folks have with "Psionics."

Beyond that, I agree, for space and simplicity, that anything Psychic powers can do that have a magic spell equivalent, should just be the spells. I don't need "Charm Person" and "Sleep" and [something like] "Personality Influence" and "Remove Consciouness" as separate entries that do the same thing. The Psychic simply has a different, some might say "personal/inner magic" or "enhanced mental awareness" or "born this way" or "battery/receptacle of the collective psychic energies of conscious beings -which most don't know they have, let alone can control or use"...however you want to fluff it...they have a "casting" (another word choice causing confusion issue) method that mirrors some other spellcaster, but not exactly/isn't the same thing.

Sorcerer's have spell points? Give the Psychic class Psychic Points. They don't need 'slots" other than how many Points a particular power manifestation would cost. No "tiered levels" of what they have access to. If they have the points to spend, they can make an effect happen. You're using a system that's already in place. I don't need an entirely different mechanic...just not an exact copy of the sorcerer system...no slots...no "prepared spells"...

And they should have, probably as a class feature/ability, the power to push themselves beyond their power points...giving themselves physical and/or mental harm in exchange for going that extra mile when the emergencies require..burning Constitution or Wisdom (or simultaneously?) or even HP makes sense to me. With built in recovery rules, obviously. But the distinct possibility that you could 'burn out" your powers for a period of time...if not actually kill yourself by going too far.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Now, that you mention it, you are right. It is a common misconception about psioncs to make it something magical. It isn't. There might be some game designers who are to lazy to create a sound system of its own for psionics, but in theory psionics have absolutely nothing to do with magic. It might work out in a given system and I fear we will get it again for D&D, but the misconception is naming psionics as something magical which it isn't. Antimagic should not work for psionics and psionical nullfields do not hinder magic. And no this is no problem at all. It is just a matter of perception.

I'll repeat what Aleister Crowley described magic(k) as, "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will". Psionics would certainly fall among that definition of magick. If there's the idea that psionics is "science" and has nothing to do with magic, that's wrong, since Arthur C Clarke said "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." And D&D magic of the Wizard most certainly some sort of science in that fantasy world, as the Wizard is the most scientist like class. There's already the idea of Words of Creation and the Language Primeval, that does pop in D&D since 2e and has been connected to 4e's invoker class and most recently the 5e Bard, which in many ways sounds a lot like the source code / programming language of reality.

Psionics has always being a subset of the ability to alter reality. And the ability to alter reality is magic. There are many flavours of altering reality, with the ritualistic patterns of the arcane and divine classes being the most common. Psionics is simply a different method of altering reality, that often does the same result.

 

[SkidAce]

I'll repeat what Aleister Crowley described magic(k) as, "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will". Psionics would certainly fall among that definition of magick. If there's the idea that psionics is "science" and has nothing to do with magic, that's wrong, since Arthur C Clarke said "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." And D&D magic of the Wizard most certainly some sort of science in that fantasy world, as the Wizard is the most scientist like class. There's already the idea of Words of Creation and the Language Primeval, that does pop in D&D since 2e and has been connected to 4e's invoker class and most recently the 5e Bard, which in many ways sounds a lot like the source code / programming language of reality.

Psionics has always being a subset of the ability to alter reality. And the ability to alter reality is magic. There are many flavours of altering reality, with the ritualistic patterns of the arcane and divine classes being the most common. Psionics is simply a different method of altering reality, that often does the same result.

Re-read [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] first paragraph. That's how some of us view it.

Psonics is science and "technically" possible. Magic is magic, and it doesn't not have to follow rules (although it could, depending on genre).

I understand your point of view, but where I think you are messing up is bluntly saying we are wrong. Quotes (And I like the quotes) showed us your perspective, but doesn't make it absolute.


To my and my campaign, the source is important, and if Psionics uses the same framework as magic, it spoils the history and flavor of the campaign.