D&D 5E Skill challenges in 5e - Math help!

[Quickleaf]

I notice my games tend to fall into some ratio of:

• Combat
• Exploration
• Interaction
• Action Challenge

By "Action Challenge" I mean things like saving people from a fire, a thrilling horseback chase, or anything in 4e that might be considered a skill challenge (that wasn't Exploration or Interaction). They are more complicated than a single check or group check, and tend to involve decisions players need to make, some dramatic tension, and last from 10-45 minutes. While they might draw on skills used in Exploration, the point of the challenge is not to explore but to accomplish a clear goal: rescue the children, catch the horse thief, etc.

In 5th edition, how would you design such a challenge (given my parameters)?

 

[Li Shenron]

I think the practical difference which may require to distinguish it from exploration is not so much "having a goal" vs open-ended, but rather the pace and time constraints.

But anyway, the two are blurred together mostly for simplicity, and because you tend to solve both by doing a lot of ability/skill checks and by using tools and items (and possibly spells and special abilities) without a detailed turn-based timeframe or action economy.

But then you can situations where the time constraints lead to in fact using a timeframe and action economy. For example, in a chase scene (Mearls mentioned we'll have chase rules in the DMG).

 

[pemerton]

I think the practical difference which may require to distinguish it from exploration is not so much "having a goal" vs open-ended, but rather the pace and time constraints.

But anyway, the two are blurred together mostly for simplicity, and because you tend to solve both by doing a lot of ability/skill checks and by using tools and items (and possibly spells and special abilities) without a detailed turn-based timeframe or action economy.

But then you can situations where the time constraints lead to in fact using a timeframe and action economy. For example, in a chase scene (Mearls mentioned we'll have chase rules in the DMG).

I don't see why an action economy has to be particularly linked to a time frame.

For instance, in AD&D a thief can try and pick a lock once per level. That is an action economy, though not linked to a time frame. Skill challenges have an action economy of a sort, though need not be linked to any particular timeframe.
[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], is there any reason why 4e skill challenge mechanics can't just be ported over to 5e? Eg do the 5e DC-setting rules make it harder? I haven't really though this through (as my questions reveal).

 

[Sadras]

@Quickleaf, is there any reason why 4e skill challenge mechanics can't just be ported over to 5e? Eg do the 5e DC-setting rules make it harder? I haven't really though this through (as my questions reveal).

This is exactly what I have been doing and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. I sincerely hope that the 4e skill challenge mechanics are included in the DMG, IMO it would be a shame to have them excluded or lost due to edition transition.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] [MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION]
Well, that was my initial thought too. However, 4th edition skill challenges make assumptions about success rates based on DC vs. PC skill values, and those assumptions are how the #successes vs. #failures is arrived at, as well as how many advantages are appropriate.

I haven't done any number crunching yet, but I know one thing I'll be looking out for are areas where skill proficiency & tool proficiency overlap (e.g. healer's kit/herbalism kit and Medicine, instruments and Perform, and so on).

 

[Mishihari Lord]

My favorite rules set for something in your "Action" pillar is Hot Pursuit for chases. To design something else for action, I suppose I would see if I could start with the framework of Hot Pursuit and go from there.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=42582]4th edition skill challenges make assumptions about success rates based on DC vs. PC skill values, and those assumptions are how the #successes vs. #failures is arrived at, as well as how many advantages are appropriate.

OK, so the DCs are a potential issue. Makes sense. I haven't really tried to make sense of 5e DCs yet.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I don't really like the 4e skill challenge rules. It tries to create a rigid framework where none is necessary in my opinion. I do think they were on the right track though. There is a need to help DM's create more advanced challenges. Something like this might work as a framework for creating a challenge:

1) I would first come up with the thing I believe to be the challengea, and a reason for the PC's to try to overcome it (get the Baron to send a squad after the bandits to protect a village, because the PC's know someone in the village).

2) I would then look at the reason for it not being a simple challenge. (For instance, why wouldn't he just do what the PC's ask? In this case it's could be due to several reasons: he doesn't trust the PC's, he doesn't have any men to do it due to other threat, he is unsure of how big the threat is and is afraid to lose his men)

3) I would think about what the PC's should know at the start of the challenge. (In this case, they might know he has been asked earlier and dismissed the threat due to it coming from a tinker, and that the PC's aren't known in this area)

4) I would look at the reasons for this being a challenge from point 2) and decide which of these reasons have to be removed/resolved for the challenge from point 1) to be resolved. I would also note some suggested means of resolving the reasons from point 2)

Creating the challenge like this creates a framework that helps me role-play the situation dragging the PC's into the challenge. When the PC's start acting, I might ask the for some ability checks, or just let them resolve the situations without rolls if it makes sense. For instance they might have persuaded a victime to come as a witness.

I think that the codified X-successes before Y-failures is to rigid to fit my kind of role playing game. Sure, you might fail at persuading a victim to bear witness (a cha(diplomacy) check), but if you bring the heads of 5 orc bandit heads to prove that there are orc bandit's, it doesn't really matter. I think allowing PC's to come up with stuff outside of the framework you have set up i advance is the core of a RPG. Having a rigid framework like 4e get's in the way and challenges should be written in a more general manner.

 

[Sadras]

I don't really like the 4e skill challenge rules. It tries to create a rigid framework where none is necessary in my opinion.... (snip)...
I think that the codified 6-successes before 3-failures is to rigid to fit my kind of role playing game. Sure, you might fail at persuading a victim to bear witness (a cha(diplomacy) check), but if you bring the heads of 5 orc bandit heads to prove that there are orc bandit's, it doesn't really matter. I think allowing PC's to come up with stuff outside of the framework you have set up i advance is the core of a RPG. Having a rigid framework like 4e get's in the way in my opinion.

Same can be said for grid-play vs TotM. I don't see it as a problem representing it as an option within the DMG and at best all "rules" are guides. I think the framework of the 4e skill challenge can assist DMs to mold skill challenges in the way they want to - it's certainly nice to have a base.

I found the below site useful for creating my own skill challengers, I'm sure there are many others and there have been some great ones posted here, funny enough even by the OP [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] (I recall one being an investigative one with fey creatures).
http://dungeonsmaster.com/skill-challenges/

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=63962]Blackbrrd[/MENTION]
Yeah, the rigid structure only works well for certain types of challenges with clear goals, specifically ACTION challenges (what I'm emphasizing here), negotiations where the NPC has very specific set of demands/requirements to reach an accord, and planned investigations with specific clues. Maybe a few others, but those are the three I've had most success using the rigid structure with. I definitely would not apply it to exploration challenges or anything with a more free form structure, however.
[MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION]
Oh, I'm very comfortable using and abusing the 4e skill challenge system. Dunngeonsmaster and Critical Hits both are great sites.

OK, so the DCs are a potential issue. Makes sense. I haven't really tried to make sense of 5e DCs yet.

Ok, I just ran some preliminary numbers on individual skill check odds of success. Forgive the lack of formatting, I'll come back to it when I have more time.

As it turns out I was wrong about tool proficiency and skill proficiency stacking. They do not. You only get to apply proficiency once to any check. However, certain class features (like Expertise) double your proficiency bonus to certain skills.

Also, for these numbers I assumed an ability modifier of +0. In actuality, ability modifiers will change these percentages roughly –10% to +25%.

Level Proficiency (Expertise)
1 +2 (+4) 
5 +3 (+6)
9 +4 (+8)
13 +5 (+10)
17 +6 (+12)

Very Easy (DC 5)
1 90% (100%)
5 95% (110%)
9 100% (120%)
13 105% (130%)
17 110% (140%)

Easy (DC 10)
1 65% (75%)
5 70% (85%)
9 75% (95%)
13 80% (105%)
17 85% (115%)

Medium (DC 15)
1 40% (50%)
5 45% (60%)
9 50% (70%)
13 55% (80%)
17 60% (90%)

Hard (DC 20)
1 15% (25%)
5 20% (35%)
9 25% (45%)
13 30% (55%)
17 35% (65%)

Very Hard (DC 25)
1 –10% (0%)
5 –5% (10%)
9 0% (20%)
13 5% (30%)
17 10% (40%)

Nearly Impossible (DC 30)
1 –40% (–30%)
5 –35% (–20%)
9 –30% (–10%)
13 –25% (5%)
17 –20% (15%)