D&D 5E Do you like the simplicity of 5E monsters?

[Dausuul]

Your comparison doesn't show what you think it does. All it does is show the power of a pretty presentation. For comparison, here's the 3E version:
[sblock]Adult Red Dragon: CR 15; Huge dragon (fire); HD 22d12+110, hp 253; Init +4; Spd 40ft., fly 150 ft. (poor); AC 29, touch 8, flat-footed 29; Base Atk+22; Grp +41; Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite); Full Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite), +26 melee (2d6+5, 2 claws), +26 melee (1d8+5, 2 wings), +26 melee (2d6+16, tail slap); Space/Reach15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with bite); SA breath weapon, crush, frightful presence, snatch, spell-like abilities, spells; SQ blindsense 60 ft., damage reduction 5/magic, darkvision 120 ft., immunity to fire, magic sleep effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance 21, vulnerability to cold; AL CE; SV Fort +18, Ref +15, Will +17; Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 16.
Skills and Feats: Appraise +25, Bluff +19, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +20, Gather Information +14, Hide –8, Jump +37, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (local) +18, Listen +26, Search +25, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +15, Spot +28; Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover.
Breath Weapon (Su): 50-ft. cone, 12d10 fire, Reflex DC 25 half.
Crush (Ex): Area 15 ft. by 15 ft.; Small or smaller opponents take 2d8+15 points of bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a DC 25 Reflex save or be pinned.
Frightful Presence (Ex): 180-ft. radius, HD 21 or fewer, Will DC 24 negates.
Snatch (Ex): Against Small or smaller creatures, bite for 2d8+11/round or claw for 2d6+5/round.
Spell-Like Abilities: 6/day—locate object. Caster level 7th.
Spells: As 7th-level sorcerer.
Sorcerer Spells Known(6/7/7/5; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, read magic, resistance; 1st—alarm, divine favor, magic missile, protection from good, shield; 2nd—cat’s grace, darkness, shatter; 3rd—dispel magic, protection from energy.[/sblock]

And here is the 5E version in the same format:

[sblock]Adult Red Dragon: Challenge 17 (18,000 XP); Huge dragon; HD 19d12+133, hp 256; Spd 40ft., climb 40ft., fly 180 ft.; AC 19 (natural armor); Actions: Multiattack, Bite +14 melee (2d10+8 pierce + 2d6 fire), Claw +14 melee (2d6+8 slash), Tail +14 melee (2d8+8 bludgeon), Frightful Presence, Fire Breath (Recharge 5-6); Legendary Actions: Detect, Tail Attack, Wing Attack (2 actions); Space 15ft.; Reach 15 ft. with Tail/10 ft. with bite/5 ft. with claw; SD Legendary Resistance (3/day); SQ blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., immunity to fire, passive Perception 23; AL CE; SV Dex +6, Con +13, Wis +7, Cha +11; Str 27, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 21.
Skills: Perception +13, Stealth +6
Multi-Attack: Use frightful presence followed by one bite and two claw attacks
Fire Breath (Recharge 5-6): 60-ft. cone, 18d6 fire, Dexterity DC 21 half.
Crush: Area 15 ft. by 15 ft.; Small or smaller opponents take 2d8+15 points of bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a DC 25 Reflex save or be pinned.
Frightful Presence: 120-ft. radius, Wisdom DC 19 negates or frightened 1 round
Detect (Legendary): Make a Wisdom (Perception) check
Tail Attack (Legendary): Make a tail attack.
Wing Attack (Legendary, 2 Actions): 10-ft. radius, 2d6+8 damage and knocked prone, Dexterity DC 22 negates. Fly up to 1/2 flying speed.[/sblock]

It doesn't look that much simpler to me. There are a lot fewer skills and no feats, but otherwise the only difference is the 5E version has fewer tactical options.

I think you accidentally copied Crush from the 3E to the 5E version. The 5E adult red doesn't have a crush attack. Unless there is a universal "crush" ability for creatures above a certain size category?

 

[Sadras]

I think a future product adding enhanced exception based options to the existing monster state blocks is fantastic. Maybe I'm greedy but I'd like have to a free download of optional stat blocks. Is that being too unrealistic?

I'm with you and given that excerpt you kindly provided of the 13th Age Beastiary I'm more than likely going to purchase it - those ideas are gold. Thanks!

 

[Paraxis]

I'm with you and given that excerpt you kindly provided of the 13th Age Beastiary I'm more than likely going to purchase it - those ideas are gold. Thanks!

13th Age does make a wonderful product, but just FYI there is also an SRD with all the monster stat blocks that you can access for free. http://www.13thagesrd.com/

Example

Half-Orc Legionnaire

Size/Strength Normal; Level 4th; Role Troop; Type Humanoid Initiative +8
Longsword +10 vs. AC; 12 damage

Natural even hit: The half-orc legionnaire gains a +2 bonus to all defenses until the start of its next turn.

Natural odd hit: The target takes +1d6 damage.

Natural even miss: 4 damage.

Natural odd miss: If the legionnaire's next melee attack is a natural even hit, it becomes a critical hit instead!

Ranged: Javelin +10 vs. AC; 10 damage

AC PD MD HP
20 18 14 56

 

[Schmoe]

I think you accidentally copied Crush from the 3E to the 5E version. The 5E adult red doesn't have a crush attack. Unless there is a universal "crush" ability for creatures above a certain size category?

Oops, you're right. Sorry about that! I'll update my post.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Natural even hit: The half-orc legionnaire gains a +2 bonus to all defenses until the start of its next turn.

Natural odd hit: The target takes +1d6 damage.

Natural even miss: 4 damage.

Natural odd miss: If the legionnaire's next melee attack is a natural even hit, it becomes a critical hit instead!

This is the kind of minutiae that really does more to slow down play than add to the game IMHO.

Say the PCs are facing a dozen of these guys. You need to keep track of the actual ROLL for each of them, note who has defense bonuses when, and match attack rolls to previous attack rolls for each individual.

That is an awful lot of work for a fight with a dozen mooks.

 

[Remathilis]

Your comparison doesn't show what you think it does. All it does is show the power of a pretty presentation.

It doesn't look that much simpler to me. There are a lot fewer skills and no feats, but otherwise the only difference is the 5E version has fewer tactical options.

Yeah, that was a bit of a formatting trick. Even WotC realized the 3.X statblock was a wall of garbage and changed it low-about DMG2 era (which the Pathfinder, 4e, and 5e statblocks now emulate).

In the interest of fairness, here he is in the later statblock.

[sblock][TABLE="width: 100%"][TR][TD]Red Dragon, Adult
[/TD][TD]CR 15
[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="colspan: 2"]Always CE Huge Dragon (Fire)
Init +4; Senses blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., keen senses; Listen +31, Spot +31
Aura frightful presence (DC 24)
Languages Draconic
[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="colspan: 2"]AC 29, touch 8, flat-footed 29
(−2 size, +21 natural)
hp 253 (22 HD); DR 5/magic
Immune fire, sleep, paralysis
SR 21
Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +17
Weakness vulnerability to cold
[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="colspan: 2"]Speed 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor)
Melee Bite +32 (2d8+11) and 2 Claws +30 (2d6+5) and 2 Wings +29 (1d8+5) and Tail Slap +29 (2d6+16)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
Base Atk +22; Grp +41
Special Actions breath weapon (50 ft. cone of fire 12d10, DC 26), crush 2d8+16 (DC 26)
Spell-like Abilities (CL 7):
6/day—locate object
The save DCs are Charisma-based
Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 7):
0— (6/day) arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, read magic, resistance;
1st— (7/day) alarm, divine favor, magic missile, protection from good, shield;
2nd—(7/day) cat’s grace, darkness, shatter;
3rd— (5/day) dispel magic, protection from energy.
[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="colspan: 2"]Abilities Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 16
Feats Alertness, Empower Spell, Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Appraise +16, Bluff +16, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +16, Escape Artist +13, Intimidate +16, Jump +24, Knowledge (any 2) +28, Listen +31, Search +28, Sense Motive +17, Spot +31, Use Magic Device +16
[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="colspan: 2"]Blindsense (Ex) Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can't actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.
Breath Weapon (Su) A red dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of fire.
Crush (Ex) This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).
A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon's body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon's breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don't escape.
Frightful Presence (Ex) A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet x the dragon's age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.
Keen Senses (Ex) A dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.[/sblock][/TD][/TR][/TABLE]
However, I disagree with the notion it really has "fewer" options by commenting how many of the options the 3.x dragon had were all that useful. Locate object as an SLA? The Crush attack? Power Attack? Do any of those options REALLY change the fact the dragon is going to primarily use its breath weapon and then do the dragon-dance attack (claw claw bite, wing, wing, tail)? to maximize damage?

The only tactical limit I see is spells, which can be restored either in the MM variant or by slapping spellcasting on via the DMG. (And IMHO, it emulates the Basic/1e Dragons where they had a % chance to cast spells.) And honestly, it can use up 5 spells up to 4th level all once per day: Magic Missile, Shield, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic, and Stoneskin. Done.

Beyond that, the dragon got rid of its artificial DR/SR and replaced its sleep/paralysis immunity with legendary saves. To be honest, accounting for spellcasting variants, both dragons will probably run the same way in most combats.

 

[Ranes]

Monsters didn't have a half dozen special abilities for what, 30 years or so?

What is your definition of 'special abilities'? Because I can find plenty of examples of monsters having more than half a dozen special-sounding abilities going back over thirty years. In the 1977 Monster Manual Juiblex, for example, had literally dozens to choose from.

 

[Jer]

That is an awful lot of work for a fight with a dozen mooks.

That's cause that's not a mook in 13th age - that's a normal monster. You'd have one or two guys with those powers out there at most. Having a dozen of them out there would be like having a dozen non-minion 4e monsters on the table.

If you want to throw a dozen mooks at your players you'd use the 13th age mook rules. And it would be something more along these lines:

Orc Rager
Size/Strength Normal; Level 7th; Role Mook; Type Humanoid
Initiative +12

Greataxe +12 vs. AC; 16 damage

Dangerous mooks: The crit range of melee attacks by orc ragers expands by 3 until half the orc rager mob has been dropped.

Dying strike: When an orc rager drops to 0 hp, it can make a final attack as a free action. (These extra attacks can come from ragers engaged with a PC.)

AC PD MD HP
22 20 16 27

 

[ExploderWizard]

That's cause that's not a mook in 13th age - that's a normal monster. You'd have one or two guys with those powers out there at most. Having a dozen of them out there would be like having a dozen non-minion 4e monsters on the table.

If you want to throw a dozen mooks at your players you'd use the 13th age mook rules. And it would be something more along these lines:

I was using the term mook as general non-unique monster, not as mechanical definition.

The term legionnaire kind of means there are legions of these guys hence the name.

 

[Jer]

I was using the term mook as general non-unique monster, not as mechanical definition.

The term legionnaire kind of means there are legions of these guys hence the name.

Sure But the point is that if you're using a system you've got to roll with the expectation of the system. If you want to stick a dozen monsters that the PCs are supposed to tear through on the table, then it would be a bad choice to stick a mechanically complex monster on the table. You should go with the monster that was built to be simple to run for that.

With the assumptions of the game in place - that you might have at most 4-5 of these guys out at once, but more typically only a few - the even/odd mechanic isn't bad to track at all. I've tweaked a few of my 4e encounters to replace rechargable powers with it and it keeps things lively (especially for me as the DM, since it helps me to improvise a bit more with my narration on the battles as different kinds of hits and misses create different opportunities for narrating my own effects). But yeah - I'd avoid those mechanics if you wanted to run an actual army fighting against the PCs.