D&D 5E The Bard: A missed opportunity.

[Imaro]

Even when an ally makes a check the +3 bonus is only going to help within a narrow range: too high a roll and the inspiration wasn't needed and too low and the inspiration won't help. There's a 15% chance inspiration makes a difference on a d20 roll. There's not a 15% chance the barbarian's rage will affect a combat, or a 15% chance a rogue's sneak attack will prove useful.
Most of the time, the Help action will be more useful.

Huh? Inspiration isn't a set number... or are you taking the average... and if so are you just looking at bards in a certain level range because the die increases as they level up?

 

[Gladius Legis]

But then what's the difference between a bard and an enchanter wizard?
Yes, a bard might have a higher Charisma, but a dedicated enchanter might opt for a 14 Cha. So the difference is a wopping +1 to social skills.

You conveniently left everything else out. Wizards do not get Expertise. Wizards do not have the social skills on their class list. Wizards only get to pick 2 skill proficiencies + whatever they get from background. And Wizards, even enchanters, aren't the class likely to boost their Charisma scores as they level.

However, the bard was traditionally "the best" at buffing. They were awesome at making the party awesome. They were the class who went around casting fighter on the enemy. Less so in 4e and 5e, where they have offensive magic of their own. Heck, the bard has offensive cantrips.

You never played the 4e Bard, did you? Or saw what they were capable of? They were considered right up with Warlords as far as how effective they were at being Leaders.

And the 5e Bard spell list is leading me to believe it will be the same.

And they've lost some of their buffing for spellcasting. The cleric, with bless is much more effective. Instead, the bard has gained much more offense.

Faerie Fire is about as good as Bless. Better in many cases. That's just at first level.

 

[Jester David]

Okay, quick number looking.

The adventuring day is based around roughly six encounters over the day. For a quick bit of theory, we'll assume three encounters, a short rest, and three more encounters.
A 10th level bard can have a 20 Charisma. So they'll have 10 uses of bardic inspiration, each day, each conferring a d10 bonus.
With six encounters, that's as many as 1.5 uses each fight.

The d10 inspiration is pretty potent, averaging a +5.5 to rolls. That's a 25% chance of mattering.
Level 10 characters are fairly accurate, having a +7 to +9 to attacks. I'll split the difference and use a +8. The range of ACs doesn't change much, so they should hit roughly 65% of the time. So any dice roll of 7 or over likely won't need bardic inspiration. And a roll of 1 or 2 will also miss. So bardic inspiration only helps on a roll of 3-6.

So of those ten uses in six encounters, 2-3 will end up being useful. So, really, the ability might as well be a bonus that automatically works but recharges each short rest...

 

[Jester David]

Huh? Inspiration isn't a set number... or are you taking the average... and if so are you just looking at bards in a certain level range because the die increases as they level up?

Taking the average and rounding down.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Most of the time, the Help action will be more useful.

Nice hyperbole. Would have meaning if action economy wasn't a concern. Help is an action. Inspiration is a bonus action.

Also as already pointed out, Inspiration scales with Bard level.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Also you are aware that both Colleges have alternate uses for Inspiration starting at Lv. 3, both of which can in fact have more widespread use?

 

[Mistwell]

Ummm

maybe I missed something,

but how are the 5e bards NOT the jack of all trades?

they can know more skills then any other class in the game, they get 1/2 proficiency bonus to skills they don't have.. they can become better fighters or better casters...

they have flexibility like no other

they have spells from almost every spell list, and can learn spells they don't have...

what am I missing again?

Oh and handing people d8's is more then equal to a +5 in pathfinder...

I agree. The Bard is an excellent Jack of All Trades in this edition. Here, I am working on a Skill Monkey bard in this thread. I could use advice from those folks in this thread who like Bards.

 

[Jester David]

You conveniently left everything else out. Wizards do not get Expertise.

One level of rogue and they can.
Okay, that is a nice bonus. But it still only means a bard is 15%

Wizards do not have the social skills on their class list. Wizards only get to pick 2 skill proficiencies + whatever they get from background. And Wizards, even enchanters, aren't the class likely to boost their Charisma scores as they level.

If you're building a charming enchanter, you'd most certainly bump Cha and pick a relevant background.

You never played the 4e Bard, did you? Or saw what they were capable of? They were considered right up with Warlords as far as how effective they were at being Leaders.

I only ever ran 4e.
This isn't 4e.
I really don't want to get into comparing editions. That way lies madness. (But I did hate the 4e bard as well.)

Faerie Fire is about as good as Bless. Better in many cases. That's just at first level.

Kinda. Faerie fire is good, but it requires a Dex save, requires clustered enemies, won't last between multiple combats (in rapid succession) and doesn't stack with other sources of advantage.

They're comparable, but one is a debuff and the other is a buff. Debuffs are much more wizardly. And the bard relying on an evocation spell as their signature spell to aid attacks is... weird.
--edit--
It's actually a pretty good example of how the 5e bard misses the mark. They get bane and faerie fire and seem much more focused on self-offense. The 5e bard is either the healer or the damage dealer, with a dash of skill money.

 

[Jester David]

I don't think that's exactly how inspiration works... The inspiration die can be used by the ally it was granted to at any time within 10 mins of the bard granting it (for comparison a round is 6 seconds) ... do most combats in 5e last more than 10 mins? If not, I'm not seeing how the best use is outside of combat... could you explain that? The ally also gets to decide whether to spend it after seeing the d20 roll... so I would assume that an ally is going to wait until he needs it for an attack roll, save, skill check, etc. and then use it in most circumstances.

You are correct, the ally can choose to spend it or not.
A combat is unlikely to last more than 10 minutes, but it's also unlikely that a party will get through more than a couple combats in 10 minutes, even if rushing from room to room. If the ally does not roll within the "sweet spot" where a +1d6 or +1d8 would likely make a difference, then the inspiration will expire. In fast paced 5e combat, you may not get more than 2-3 turns per encounter. If a character's opponent dies and they cannot reach another foe, that's one less turn.

So, there's no guarantee the ability will be used. The bard uses their signature ability and nothing happens.

There's the same chance for rolls negating the usefulness of bardic inspiration out of combat. But there's less chance of someone losing their turn due to a stun or being unable to reach an opponent or the like. With one less variable, it's slightly more reliable. But still not necessarily useful.

Nice hyperbole. Would have meaning if action economy wasn't a concern. Help is an action. Inspiration is a bonus action.

Advantage will negate a bad roll. It's roughly comparable to a +5, making it better than bardic inspiration for half of the bard's levels.

Also you are aware that both Colleges have alternate uses for Inspiration starting at Lv. 3, both of which can in fact have more widespread use?

Yes I am.
It is a little weird that the class relies on the subclass to make it's signature ability useful. It's a little like if the rogue's sneak attack was only really useful when you hit level three and was used in a particular way as established by the subclass.

 

[Jester David]

Just so long as we don't confuse "great case" with "being a pest about it and annoying other posters".

Which is why I didn't really discuss my feelings on the bard until someone else started a forum thread specifically to discuss problems with the bard.

(Pest though? I'm a little insulted.)