D&D 5E The Multiverse is back....

pemerton

Legend
Without wanting to get drawn into this, I disagree that the changes 4e imposed on many classic elements of D&D, including the planes and creatures therein, can't reasonably be called "minor details" given the scope of it all and how it was impressed onto the various settings. No Blood War in core so no Blood War in settings
Huh?

Is the Blood War mentioned in the 3E or 3.5 MMs? I don't remember it being very prominent in either. The Blood War is discussed in muliple 4e sourcebooks, including The Manual of the Planes, The Plane Above and the Demonomicon. So I'm confused as to what you mean by "no Blood War in settings".

archons are evil elementals
I already discussed this above - evil elementals aren't a re-imagining of Jeff Grubb's archons, they're a re-use of the old label for a new creature. There is nothing in 4e that would stop a fan of the old archons continuing to use them as servants of Moradin and Bahamut.

guardinals don't exist
Likewise, nothing in 4e stops anyone using "guardinals" as servitors of Pelor in Hestavar.

eladrin are now blink elves rather than a race of CG outsiders
ANd this is an instance of exactly what I'm talking about. Eladrin in 4e are a race of mercurial fey beings who live on another plane that is (on balance) a plane of light rather than shadow. They are inherently magical - like many eladrin in 3E, they can teleport themselves, and have other magical abilities too (I refer you to the eladrin entries in the 4e MM and MM2).

This is not an abaondoning or "disrespecting" of what has gone before. It is a re-presentation of it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Nellisir

Hero
This thread keeps cropping up as having new replies in my settings, but doesn't. Thread is a liar.

Actually...there's a new post visible right now, under Topic Review (newest first) that wasn't visible earlier. But it's two days old. Weird.
 


Nivenus

First Post
I already discussed this above - evil elementals aren't a re-imagining of Jeff Grubb's archons, they're a re-use of the old label for a new creature. There is nothing in 4e that would stop a fan of the old archons continuing to use them as servants of Moradin and Bahamut.

Except using the same name does confuse things (I'm not sure why you'd claim otherwise). It means that if you use pre-4e archons you've got to rename them... or go the extra mile to explain, yes, these are archons but they're not the same archons. In fact, they're nothing like those other archons who happen to share the same name. Don't worry. It makes sense.

And this is an instance of exactly what I'm talking about. Eladrin in 4e are a race of mercurial fey beings who live on another plane that is (on balance) a plane of light rather than shadow. They are inherently magical - like many eladrin in 3E, they can teleport themselves, and have other magical abilities too (I refer you to the eladrin entries in the 4e MM and MM2).

Except that's a major simplification of 4e eladrin vs. pre-4e eladrin. One's a celestial race with intrinsic dies to chaotic good deities. One's high elves with some extra magic. And that's not an exaggeration - in the Forgotten Realms 4e eladrin are moon elves and sun elves... and celestial eladrin (who were apparently the same race all along, but no one knew).

I'm not comfortable with the word "disrespect" in this context, but it certainly is more than just a representation of the same material. There were some major rewrites of the lore going on and it wasn't just Planescape fans who were disgruntled by it. The FR Wiki (which I started editing around 4e's release) damn well considered ignoring the entire edition. We're still dealing with repercussions now six years later, including an editionless policy that makes some of our articles a nigh incomprehensible mess. Even the Eberron Wiki, on my last check, is remarkably shy of 4e material, despite the minimal impact 4e had on that setting.

I think what you - and some other posters - are perceiving as "Planescape fans demanding special treatment for their lore" is actually a much wider phenomenon: which is that fans of published campaign settings don't like to see the boat rocked very much, if at all. Planescape fans don't like it, Realms fans don't like it, Greyhawk fans don't like it, Eberron fans don't like it, etc. It's not a Planescape thing. It's a setting fan thing. The only reason it looks like a Planescape thing is because we're talking specifically about the planes.
 
Last edited:

pemerton

Legend
Except using the same name does confuse things (I'm not sure why you'd claim otherwise).
Who is confused?

You don't seem to be. Nor does [MENTION=11697]Shemeska[/MENTION]. I am not (and I have a copy of Jeff Grubb's MotP, which I bought and where I first read about archons in 1987).

James Ward's DDG repurposed the concept of "Titan" to describe the mostly evil proto-gods of Greek Myth (as opposed to the mostly noble and generous quasi-divine giants of the 1st ed D&D MM). Somewhere - I think in Jeff Grubb's MotP - there was a brief explanation of how the word "Titan" did double duty. I don't think many people suffered from serious confusion.

It means that if you use pre-4e archons you've got to rename them... or go the extra mile to explain, yes, these are archons but they're not the same archons. In fact, they're nothing like those other archons who happen to share the same name. Don't worry. It makes sense.
To whom are you making this explanation? Players who have read the 4e MM (or are using Arcane Power to build a summoning wizard), and hence have learned what 4e archons are, but who aren't familiar with the prior material, but with whom you want to use the prior material? How many players are in that category? How many times did you have this problem in the course of your 4e campaigns?

Until your post I hadn't even turned my mind to this confusion issue, but now that I have I don't see that confusion is going to be very rife.

Except that's a major simplification of 4e eladrin vs. pre-4e eladrin. One's a celestial race with intrinsic dies to chaotic good deities. One's high elves with some extra magic. And that's not an exaggeration - in the Forgotten Realms 4e eladrin are moon elves and sun elves... and celestial eladrin (who were apparently the same race all along, but no one knew).
I don't know very much about the ins-and-outs of FR lore either pre- or post-4e.

But personally, I don't see a major difference between "celestial race" (= magical race with a few bells and whistles) of pseudo-elves with intrinsic ties to CG deities, and "magical race" with intrinsic ties to the deities of Arvandor (which was, in Planescape-oriented presentations, a CG plane).

I'm not comfortable with the word "disrespect" in this context, but it certainly is more than just a representation of the same material. There were some major rewrites of the lore going on and it wasn't just Planescape fans who were disgruntled by it.
It isn't certainly more than just a representation of the same material. What is changing the nature of a mercurial, magical elven race from "celestial" to "fey" but a new presentation of earlier material? It is not making up something new from whole cloth.

There's room for discussion about how faithful West Side Story is to Romeo and Juliet, and whether the change in the ending is better, worse or just different - but to say that because the setting is moved from Italy to NYC it simply can't count as a reworking of the older material would be silly. Being set in Italy, rather than NYC, just isn't so integral to Romeo and Juliet that you can't keep the gist yet lose that feature. My view is that identifying the essence of Eladrin with game-mechanical concepts like "celestial" rather than "fey", as opposed to story/thematic concepts like "mercurial, otherworldly elven beings" which are preserved in 4e, is precisely the sort of thing I talked about upthread: a focus on minor details rather than thematic resonance and story function.

fans of published campaign settings don't like to see the boat rocked very much
I'm sure that's true. But that doesn't rebut my point. From my point of view it might rather be a confirmation of it.

Furthermore, D&D isn't a "published campaign setting": it is not a work of fiction. The story elements published in the core D&D books - monsters, PC backgrounds and classes, etc - are intended for use by D&D players to create their own works of fiction. (Of course, some players aren't as interested in the story elements as the more nitty-gritty challenge elements, which is fine too.) At most, they carry hints of theme or content for players to pick up and adapt to their own purposes. (See eg the interesting current thread "Evil enough", about tiefling warlock backstory.) In presenting this sort of stuff, it's fine for designers to be inspired by what came before but I at least want them to produce the best that they can. Not simply to republish a recap of what came before with a few extra additions, like some never-ending chain novel. People who love the old versions still have their old books to read.
 

Vic Ferrari

Banned
Banned
James Ward's DDG repurposed the concept of "Titan" to describe the mostly evil proto-gods of Greek Myth (as opposed to the mostly noble and generous quasi-divine giants of the 1st ed D&D MM). Somewhere - I think in Jeff Grubb's MotP - there was a brief explanation of how the word "Titan" did double duty. I don't think many people suffered from serious confusion.


Do you not find it a bit odd to have a race of Lawful Good Celestials and Evil Elementals called the same thing?
 

I'm confused. Your original comment about reasonableness referred to [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] (who is a moderator, as per his profile description in the uppper left of his posts). This is what [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] was responding to.
There was an assertion that being a moderator gave one an assumption of reasonableness by virtue of authority, or some such argument. Naturally, it's a suspect argument, but there it was.
 




Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top