D&D 5E Everyone Starts at First Level

[Greyline]

I was actually talking about Bilbo, not Frodo. Shocked that someone wasn't familiar with the hobbit in this day and age. I thought the "veteran dwarves" was a giveaway

I realized that about ten seconds after I posted. However, Bilbo wasn't a farmer either.

 

[Greyline]

I dunno.

But I read all your posts in Billy D. William's voice. I thought you should know.

Thanks. I read everyone's posts in Billy's voice.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I realized that about ten seconds after I posted. However, Bilbo wasn't a farmer either.

Well, either way, a group of experienced people brought on a novice adventurer, and said adventurer was able to be part of a group that overcame several challenges without dying, some of them without the aid of magic items at all. Heck, after the troll encounter he would have probably reached level 3 right there

 

[Elric]

Awesome! Thanks for the explanation. I get it. I'm not sure I'd do it, myself (I'd be more likely to tell the player "you can bring in a character of any level from 1st to X, your choice"), but I get it.

I really agree with you about the organic sense of growth, and the importance of rank to players who have worked their way up. The "young hunters go out with the veterans" thing is fascinating.

The one time we did this, we had a 1st lvl PC apprenticed to one particular PC in the party, technically as a punishment and to teach him some responsibility. It worked quite well because the player had insisted on being 1st level. I did have to pull a punch or two, though, letting other heroes give the apprentice full cover vs fireballs by throwing themselves on the low-lvl PC (a ruling that no one complained about, even if it felt a little weird to me.)

If you split XP equally, the 1st level PC will level very quickly in a high level party. The rest of the party will level more slowly, assuming that the GM keeps the encounters a correspondingly similar difficulty for the weaker state of party with a 1st level PC instead of a higher level one.

And it's true that the 5e 1st level PC won't stay first level for long if he splits XP equally with the high level party. But that's because in the encounter against 2 Fire Giants, 2 Ogres and 2 Kobolds he fought the Kobolds while 3 other level 16 party members fought the Giants and Ogres. Unless the party dropped the Kobolds with an Area of effect, in which case he either avoids combat entirely or uses ranged attacks from a distance and hopes that none of the Giants squash him in one hit. For that he goes up to level 3 (almost level 4!), more than doubling his hit points.

The character could make it to level 5, out of the "apprentice tier," in 2-4 encounters, which might be only a day of adventuring. Will it feel like organic growth when he increases as much in power after his first encounter as the original 1st level party did in 6 sessions?

Play time, and not gaining levels or starting out at a low level, is the most important way that characters grow. So while I see plenty of issues caused by starting new PCs at first level, I also don't see how the claimed benefits will readily materialize.

 

[Elric]

I put a great deal of stock in my campaign world's internal consistency. If almost everyone is low-level, but every time there is a pc death, there just happens to be the perfect high-level replacement handy, it strains my credulity.

I do agree that having a new high level replacement come in every time a PC dies or a new person joins the game can strain credibility in certain settings. However, I'd rather make that one introduction (he was on the Avengers West Coast team, you just didn't hear much about him before now!).

Otherwise you need to rationalize: the introduction of a level 1 PC, why a high level group is taking on apprentices (perhaps frequently, if you have deaths/introduce new players often), why the party doesn't confront any threats with area attacks for several encounters, and the new PC's rocketing advancement to being a level 5+ character (probably much higher than the typical level in the setting). That can strain credibility too, and you additionally have all of the issues with a much lower level PC in a high level party.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'm much more of a "feel" and "common sense" type of guy when it comes to things like this, but let's look at the math for a sec.

You've got a party of 5th level PCs and one 1st level fighting a hill giant. In 3e, he's got what, an AC 20 and +16 to hit? So a first level character is going to need something like a 17 or better to hit him, and the giant will hit the PC pretty much every time.

In 5e, the giant has AC 13 and a +8 to hit. That means a level 1 PC is only going to need a 10 or so to hit, and giant could miss on a 7 or less (assuming an AC 16 or so for a level 1 PC--totally realistic for fighter types).

Sure, if the giant hits the PC is toast, but if the level 1 PC attacks at range, they are exponentially more viable in combat than their 3e counterpart against the same creature. And damage isn't all that far apart either. A level 1 fighter with a bow could still do 1d8+3 damage while the level 5 fighter is also doing 1d8+3 (or +4 if they took ability improvement). The 5th level gets an extra attack, sure, but the 1st level certainly isn't worthless.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

No, but they do use guys like me (blackhawk helicopter crewchief) in their missions. Last time I checked, I'm not nearly as good as a SEAL.

(For the record I get the humor and LOLed)

I am assuming they didn't grab you the day you graduated basic (and began your career as a 0XP crewman) to fulfill a SEAL mission. Seal Auxilliary is definitely a prestige class.

Frodo Baggins
Halfling Rogue 1
0XP
Items: Magical Longsword (small) +1/+3 vs. Orcs/Goblins/Spiders
Elven Chain of Indestructability
Cloak of Elvenkind
Cursed Ring of Invisibility (instant jealousy in others)
Potion of Resurrection

Tactics: Stealth check and remain hidden to avoid all battles and solve all encounters.

 

[Sacrosanct]

(For the record I get the humor and LOLed)

I am assuming they didn't grab you the day you graduated basic (and began your career as a 0XP crewman) to fulfill a SEAL mission. Seal Auxilliary is definitely a prestige class.

You'd be surprised. I got tasked for a secret mission in Korea just because I was the one on duty at the time and available. 19 years old and PFC at the time

Frodo Baggins
Halfling Rogue 1
0XP
Items: Magical Longsword (small) +1/+3 vs. Orcs/Goblins/Spiders
Elven Chain of Indestructability
Cloak of Elvenkind
Cursed Ring of Invisibility (instant jealousy in others)
Potion of Resurrection

Tactics: Stealth check and remain hidden to avoid all battles and solve all encounters.

See my comment about Bilbo and the trolls above. More importantly, it was just one example of many available to prove a point that yes, it does happen. Take any of the Shannara books if you want. Or heck, Star Wars. Luke wasn't nearly as "high level" as Obi Wan, Han, or Chewbacca. Or in video games, with Last of Us. The examples are near endless.

 

[GSHamster]

Interestingly enough, there's actually an analogous situation in the world of MMOs. It occurs in Eve Online which has a reputation (among other things) of being a game where a newbie can contribute to a veteran group battle on Day One. (Assuming the newbie can figure out the interface, of course.)

Here's an article about such a newbie experience: http://tagn.wordpress.com/2014/05/08/tackling-in-syndicate/

I tried to analyze what exactly it was about the mechanics of Eve Online that made this possible. My conclusion was the primary reason was the lack of Area of Effect attacks in the game. Without AoE, it simply isn't worth burning an action on killing a newbie.

My post: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2014/05/useful-on-day-one.html

So my feeling is that it would be much the same in D&D. If AoE is limited, then the newbie can survive and contribute. If AoE is common, it's very likely the newbie would be killed in short order.

 

[Piratecat]

Yeah. And it's not like that farmer needs a magical dagger, mithril mail shirt, and the most powerful artifact in the world in order to survive or anything.

oh wait...

This totally made me laugh.