D&D 5E The Multiverse is back....

[Parmandur]

"Ideal" as in not physical, non-corporeal in Star Trek terms. All of the core books are pretty clear the Outer Planes are not physical places like the Prime Material; are you arguing that Devils are not aligned with the Platonized Ideas of Evil and Law in core D&D?

 

[Imaro]

"Ideal" as in not physical, non-corporeal in Star Trek terms. All of the core books are pretty clear the Outer Planes are not physical places like the Prime Material; are you arguing that Devils are not aligned with the Platonized Ideas of Evil and Law in core D&D?

I've never heard ideal used in that manner...

No I don't think they are the platonic idea (form) of lawful evil... there can only be one platonic form of LE... thus in order for Devil's as a whole to be the Platonic Idea of LE they would all have to be exactly the same in dedication, personality, etc, as it related to LE... again alignment is a broad umbrella that they all fit under in general terms... they are all LE but they don't all represent the platonic form of LE.

 

[Remathilis]

Sorry, but, I'm misunderstanding. Where does that quote come from? Is that in the 1e Monster Manual or in the 1e Manual of the Planes.

Monster Manual. From the Demon and Devil areas as well as some specific monsters.

Monster Manual: Never Generic Since 1977.

 

[Aldarc]

This section in the 5E PHB on Alignment sounds like idealism to me with law and evil being absolute metaphysical forces:

Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn’t tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.

 

[Imaro]

This section in the 5E PHB on Alignment sounds like idealism to me with law and evil being absolute metaphysical forces:

Yes they are all LE... that was already established... show me where it says it is totally Evil... that is the point that was in contention earlier, by the very fact that it's nature is both Lawful and Evil it cannot be absolutely Evil and be absolutely Lawful...since absolute is well... absolute. Otherwise it's nature would just be evil... which is what 4e tried to present...for the most part... unless you were CE which was a wholly different type of evil as opposed to just being evil...

And once Again LE is a broad umbrella as far as description goes not something specific and granular...tell me how much more LE is a Devil than a vampire who is also LE or a PC who is also LE... are they all the exact same as pertains to LE?

NOTE: They say essential part of their nature not their entire nature and it nowhere states that they personify it in some ideal form. All it's saying is that they all fit under the umbrella of LE because something inherent in fiends causes certain commonalities... not that they are all the exact same.

EDIT: Just to clarify evil is an absolute metaphysical force in the D&D cosmology... law is an absolute metaphysical force... theoretically one can be absolutely evil... the platonic form of NE... one can be purely lawful... the platonic form of LN this is also true for Chaos and Good... what you can't be is absolutely LE... because it's an impure form by nature...

 

[Aldarc]

Yes they are all LE... that was already established... show me where it says it is totally Evil... that is the point that was in contention earlier, by the very fact that it's nature is both Lawful and Evil it cannot be absolutely Evil and be absolutely Lawful...since absolute is well... absolute. Otherwise it's nature would just be evil... which is what 4e tried to present...for the most part... unless you were CE which was a wholly different type of evil as opposed to just being evil...

And once Again LE is a broad umbrella as far as description goes not something specific and granular...tell me how much more LE is a Devil than a vampire who is also LE or a PC who is also LE... are they all the exact same as pertains to LE?

But that they must be absolutely LE still means that LE exists as an absolute metaphysical reality. That's part of the contention.

 

[Parmandur]

Exactly; as I've said upthread, the categories do work well enough as a loose system for identifying personalities of different PC's, but the system absolutizes them in the Outer Planes; and on that level the system is completely nonsensical.

 

[Imaro]

But that they must be absolutely LE still means that LE exists as an absolute metaphysical reality. That's part of the contention.

No the passage states that in order to be a fiend something must be LE (absolutely is not mentioned at all in this context and it has already been established this is not the totality of their nature or essence and furthermore that even the same alignments allow for different ethos, philosophies, personalities and so on)... so I'm not sure where you're getting that they must be absolutely LE or even what that term means(since law and evil exists on 2 separate axis in the D&D cosmology) in regards to a platonic form or being absolutely evil or absolutely Lawful... since you can't be absolutely more than one thing... absolutely means in totality...

 

[Imaro]

Exactly; as I've said upthread, the categories do work well enough as a loose system for identifying personalities of different PC's, but the system absolutizes them in the Outer Planes; and on that level the system is completely nonsensical.

No it doesn't and you've presented no evidence to support this claim... continuing to repeat it over and over again doesn't make it any less false.

 

[Nivenus]

I think we're kind of getting off-topic again, but I'll try to address the "contradiction" briefly.

The idea that outsiders, in some way, represent an ideal is true a certain extent... planar lore across several editions has talked about the Astral Plane as a place where thoughts become reality and ideas are as powerful as physical forces. This is generally consistent with Planescape's metaphysical approach that belief shapes reality. As a result, outsiders are, to a certain extent, embodiments of abstract concepts as well as physical beings.

But I think what some people are missing is - again - a conflation of "ideal" with "perfect." That's not really what the lore means in my opinion.

Devils are an "ideal" form of lawful evil (and evil lawfulness); they are the representation of everything oppressive about law and everything tyrannical about evil. They are not a perfect representation of complete, unadulterated evil or of complete and total law. A devil's lawfulness actually limits their capacity for complete evil and their tendency towards evil limits the degree to which they can be lawful. The same is true of a demon in respect to its relationship to chaos and evil or an archon in respect to its relation to law and good.

Devils and demons are both "ideal" forms of evil, but only in a specific respect (tyranny and wanton destruction respectively). If you're looking for "perfect" embodiments of evil neither is one, because the nature of their evil is colored in a particular way. As far as perfect forms of evil go, yugoloths/daemons are closer, as they represent pure, unadulterated selfishness (or avarice, as the 5e MM describes it). But again, part of the purpose of the distinction between LE, NE, and CE is that which is worse lies in the eye of the beholder.