Pathfinder 1E Combining Rogue and Synthesist Summoner, input please!

[Griffonslayer]

I love playing Rogues, but I love the idea of the Eidolon class feature, specifically the Fused Eidolon of the Synthesist archetype. I wanted thoughts on how powerful you thought the this melding would be. To me the eidolon, without the summoner's spellcasting, is going to be fairly weak in late game; which is the only reason I left in some of the Sneak Attack damage. Is it too powerful? Any changes you would make if someone asked to play this in one of your games?


Hit die: d8
Skill Ranks: 8+Int
Skills: Same as Rogue

Fused Eidolon (Synthesist Archetype), Fused link, trapfinding

Sneak attack +1d6, trap sense +1

Shielded Meld

Sneak attack +2d6

Maker's Jump, trap sense +3

Sneak attack +3d6

Greater Shielded Meld

Sneak attack +4d6, trap sense +5

Split Forms

Sneak attack +5d6

[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: center"]Level[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: center"]Base Attack Bonus[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: center"]Fort Save[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: center"]Ref Save[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: center"]Will Save[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3"]Special[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1st[/TD][TD="align: center"]+0[/TD][TD="align: center"]0[/TD][TD="align: center"]2[/TD][TD="align: center"]0[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]2nd[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+1[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]0[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]3[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]0[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Evasion, rogue talent[/TD] [TD="align: center"]3rd[/TD][TD="align: center"]+2[/TD][TD="align: center"]1[/TD][TD="align: center"]3[/TD][TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]4th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+3[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]1[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]4[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]1[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Rogue talent, uncanny dodge[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+3[/TD][TD="align: center"]1[/TD][TD="align: center"]4[/TD][TD="align: center"]1[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]6th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+4[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]2[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]5[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]2[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Rogue talent, trap sense +2[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+5[/TD][TD="align: center"]2[/TD][TD="align: center"]5[/TD][TD="align: center"]2[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]8th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+6/+1[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]2[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]6[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]2[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+6/+1[/TD][TD="align: center"]3[/TD][TD="align: center"]6[/TD][TD="align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]10th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+7/+2[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]3[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]7[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]3[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Advanced talents, rogue talent[/TD] [TD="align: center"]11th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+8/+3[/TD][TD="align: center"]3[/TD][TD="align: center"]7[/TD][TD="align: center"]3[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]12th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+9/+4[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]4[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]8[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]4[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Rogue talent, trap sense +4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]13th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+9/+4[/TD][TD="align: center"]4[/TD][TD="align: center"]8[/TD][TD="align: center"]4[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]14th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+10/+5[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]4[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]9[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]4[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Rogue talent[/TD] [TD="align: center"]15th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+11/+6/+1[/TD][TD="align: center"]5[/TD][TD="align: center"]9[/TD][TD="align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]16th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+12/+7/+2[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]5[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]10[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]5[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Rogue talent[/TD] [TD="align: center"]17th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+12/+7/+2[/TD][TD="align: center"]5[/TD][TD="align: center"]10[/TD][TD="align: center"]5[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]18th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+13/+8/+3[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]6[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]11[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]6[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Rogue talent, trap sense +6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]19th[/TD][TD="align: center"]+14/+9/+4[/TD][TD="align: center"]6[/TD][TD="align: center"]11[/TD][TD="align: center"]6[/TD] [TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]20th[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]+15/+10/+5[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]6[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]12[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3, align: center"]6[/TD][TD="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Master strike, rogue talent

[/TD]

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If anything, getting rid of spellcasting will make you a stronger combatant. One of the significant checks on Synthesist.. uh, synergy... is that you need arms in order to cast spells, which makes it more expensive to assume a quadruped form (which is required for Pounce). Without needing to worry about that, you can just be an insane pouncing beast with a ridiculous Strength score and more attacks than anyone else in the party. (And of course, since you don't need to worry about your own physical stats, you can throw everything into Wisdom and Intelligence.)

Not only would you be a better fighter than any of the core fighting classes, though, but you can also spend a couple of points to pick up that ridiculous +8 racial bonus to any skill you feel like. Which, at least in the case of Perception, can be further augmented with something like the Vigilant Eidolon feat... which always applies.

Of course, the one check on your insane insanity is that Eidolons - even fused ones - cannot be healed with healing spells; and, since you gave up your spells, you wouldn't even be able to cast Rejuvenate. You would be entirely dependent upon magic items to heal.

 

[Griffonslayer]

This is what I was looking to create as an Eidolon. I suppose almost anything can be min/maxed, but I typically find myself doing it to things that tend to make me useless in combat. I was trying to create a cool concept. I was looking at playing a Wyrwood, which is simply a small construct. Walk around in this large "stealth" suit, and if something happens, run around a corner and *poof* the target is gone. Who is going to question the little construct that saw the big guy run "that way"?

# Evolutions Effect
0 Biped Medium, STR 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
30' BLS, +2 NatArmor, Fort(G)/Ref(B)/Will(G)
Limbs (legs), Limbs (Arms), Claws (1d4)
2 Shadow Form Concealment (20% miss), melee attacks have ghost touch
and deal half damage to coporeal
2 Shadow Blend Concealment in less than torch light (Total w/ ShadForm)
2 Limbs (legs) +10ft BLS
1 Bite 1d6
1 Reach +5ft reach (Bite)
1 Skilled +8 Stealth
1 Skilled +8 Perception
1 Skilled +8 Disable Device
1 Skilled +8 Acrobatics
1 Climb =BLS
1 Scent Scent sense 30', can track by scent
1 Improved Damage damage increase by one die size
4 Large +8STR/-2DEX/+4CON, +2 NA, -1 AC, -4 Stealth, +5ft reach
6 Flight Wings (Spend 2 points, fly by magic. Must be 5th lvl)
1 Spirit-touched Aza-zati - Sniff Gold - like scent but only to detect gold.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Even just looking at that, doesn't that seem a bit... broken? You have more attacks - and primary attacks, at that - than the rogue, so that balances with your reduced sneak attack damage. Except you are faster, way stronger, can fly, and have +8 to your important skill checks.

And, as you admitted, you're not even really trying to max for combat. Without optimizing, you're still a substantially better fighter than the fighter (based on your Strength score alone), and a substantially better skill-monkey than the rogue.

 

[Griffonslayer]

As far as skills are concerned, yes. That was my point. But my counter is that by lvl 20 what does most of it actually matter? Most of it can be done better/quicker by a wizard with his spells. What lvl 20 character can't fly, by some means or another, relatively easily? And while I agree that I have three attacks, and I will have a good Strength, I'm not sure that those two factors qualify as "substantially better" than a fighter. I don't have a fighter's feats, base attack bonus or weapon training. IF I hit, I can potentially do some damage, but Shadow Form cuts the damage in half.

I do understand your point however. With all the power inherent in the spell casting classes, and not being drawn to that aspect of the game (I love the skill monkey concept), I have always felt a little jilted. This was one of my attempts to make the rogue a little more deadly and less replaceable by a spell caster.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

What are the Rogue parts in there for really? A synthesist Summoner could do most of what your Rogue would do, minus the Sneak Attack. Some Eidolon evolutions have effects similar to some Rogue talents, while some of the spells can do Rogue-y things.

I played a quadruped, pounce, synthesist Summoner who was a professional thief and con artist. In his human form, he used spells, his high CHA score and roleplaying to be slick. In Eidolon he was the urban legend "Fenrir", and used his climb speed and eventual flight to get where he needed to go, Invisibility to not be seen going there, and skill boosts to pull off some tricky things. I did not find any levels of Rogue needed.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

What are the Rogue parts in there for really? A synthesist Summoner could do most of what your Rogue would do, minus the Sneak Attack. Some Eidolon evolutions have effects similar to some Rogue talents, while some of the spells can do Rogue-y things.

I think his point was that he didn't want to be a spellcaster. Pathfinder kind of has a reputation where spellcasters are awesome and non-spellcasters are lame, but being a spellcaster also requires a lot of work and bookkeeping. There are plenty of reasons to want to not cast spells.

 

[Griffonslayer]

Yeah, Saelorn is right. I just don't like all the tracking and planning of being a spell caster. I like playing rouges and it just seems that after a while all the "rogue" aspects can be duplicated by most casters (as you helped to prove). I was trying to create something like an Uber-rogue.