D&D 5E 5th edition Forgotten Realms: Why can't you just ignore the lore?

A coda to my posts 150 and 152: some people might think that RPGs are different from novels, comics, films etc because the point of an RPG is to explore an imagined world, and hence stability and consistency of canon has a unique role to play in RPGing.

I think this is a contentious conception of RPGing - some play for this reason, or in this fashion, but many don't. But even if that is why you are playing, it doesn't require consistency except at a given table and for a given campaign. This is quite feasible even if the publishers of the stuff don't adhere to canon. Apart from anything else, you can just not use the new, inconsistent, stuff.
 

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A little mnemonic to remember which spelling of canon/cannon is which: One N you argue, Two N's you shoot.

And back to the real discussion...

Canon: literally, a list. Originally, a list of what is approved. Origin is in the early councils of the Catholic/Orthodox churches. The first canons are the lists of rules from the councils, and the list of what books are allowed for services.

The bible is the classic example of a closed public canon... but, depending upon which authority you ask, you get a different list.

Some terms:
An open canon can be added to.
A closed canon has a fixed set of sources.
A corpus is the entire collected works.
A public canon is one where what is canon is declared by the authority publicly; a private canon is only released on a need to know.

The corpus of the realms has gotten to the point where no one can keep it all straight. Happens with most multi-author fictional settings.

The solution for an authorial point of view is to establish a subset of the corpus that is a declared canon, and in fiction writing, that canon is usually private, shared only between the line manager, the editors, and often also the authors. In other cases (Star Wars; Star Trek through about 1998; Babylon 5; Firefly) the canon is public - the authority publicly disseminates a list; "this list is what's canon"... and anyone working in that setting now is expected to only consider that material canon. Sometimes the canon is open; the other authors can add to it.

In the case of Star Trek, Canon has been (last I heard) reverted to just the footage, excluding the animated.
Star Wars has such a diverse writing environment that they established multiple levels of canonicity. So, for comics, all the prior comics are canon...

The Realms, however, has thousands of authors... from a GM standpoint, it's a neither closed nor open, but in between. It's got a large corpus, a private canon, and that canon is known to be open to the writers.

The fact that the canon isn't public is a problem for some (Sailor Moon is one, I suspect) - the GM never knows if canon is or is not being changed by what they get. For others, it's a blessing. I don't know exactly what's canon, so I feel free to grab from the various wikis. I also feel free to disregard elements that I can't make work.

On the other hand, that the corpus is large, and the canon is open and private means that, no matter how good I am, I'm going to annoy someone because I got something "wrong." Which is part of why I don't like published settings without a known canon.

So, in running it, it's best to decide what is YOUR realms canon. Then stick with that. Ignore the rest of the corpus, just like most christians ignore 3 & 4 Maccabees. If you don't mention it, most won't miss it.
 

You say GMforPowergamers is experiencing a problem because there is too much canon, not because authors have deviated from canon. I am thinking the authors could solve his problem if they organized and presented all of the information much better. It would be nice if they maintained an online resource that instantly answered a DM's questions, or if they opened a support line. GMforPowergamers should be able to quickly get a list of all of the archenemies of any particular major NPC, and that information should be adjusted for different dates.

ok the problem is how do I know what question to ask?

would I need to everytime I come up with a plot have to ask for a list of NPCs in and around the entire country I am setting it, then ask for stats and a list of personality traits for each?

the problem is/was (this was years ago) players with MUCH more knowledge makes the DM not able to catch up...

10 years ago Paul was still a player (since got married, and moved to a different state) Dave (since had a nervous break down and moved in with his sister in another country) and Ross and Kurt as players (there were more but those 4 are the issues, kurt and ross still play) now of the 4 of them, Paul and Kurt used to live together, and at the time Paul had a bookshelf with every single novel, and most of the rpg stuff he called the 'realms shelf' Paul had read all of it many times over (as far as I know he re reads them every few years) and kurt was going through them. Ross and Dave had different sets of books, ross love the finder books and dave the drizzt ones and both had a few others, but both owned the 2e sets of books.

Now at the time I had read 2 Novels set in the realms, one was the spellfire book, the other was a series of little pocket stories. I had read the grey box set, and skimed the 3.0 book. You can notice a big difference. I didn't even know what I was getting myself into. I had no idea who the 7 sisters where, or who Volo was (I thought the book Volo's guide to all things magical was a generic book not an FR one these people where talking about)

I spent levels (6 or 7) doing my best to run in the realms and my PCs tried to put up with my lack of knowledge, but it was grating on both sides.... you know who got the most annoyed... Tom (My brother in law and casual player) because he didn't care 1 lick for canon, and had never in his life played in a published setting before.

To this day I have players (mostly kurt, sometimes Ross, and a player who is 'newish' since 3.5) ask "I really want to play in the realms, can you run a realms game." and my answer is always the same "Sorry, Akbar say's that isn't in my best interest."

4e made it sooo much easier, time jump + limited canon. I could read 1 book (the campaign guide) and know everything that everyone else did. I didn't need to worry about a list of NPCs longer then my arm, or anything else...
 

ok the problem is how do I know what question to ask?

would I need to everytime I come up with a plot have to ask for a list of NPCs in and around the entire country I am setting it, then ask for stats and a list of personality traits for each?

the problem is/was (this was years ago) players with MUCH more knowledge makes the DM not able to catch up...

10 years ago Paul was still a player (since got married, and moved to a different state) Dave (since had a nervous break down and moved in with his sister in another country) and Ross and Kurt as players (there were more but those 4 are the issues, kurt and ross still play) now of the 4 of them, Paul and Kurt used to live together, and at the time Paul had a bookshelf with every single novel, and most of the rpg stuff he called the 'realms shelf' Paul had read all of it many times over (as far as I know he re reads them every few years) and kurt was going through them. Ross and Dave had different sets of books, ross love the finder books and dave the drizzt ones and both had a few others, but both owned the 2e sets of books.

Now at the time I had read 2 Novels set in the realms, one was the spellfire book, the other was a series of little pocket stories. I had read the grey box set, and skimed the 3.0 book. You can notice a big difference. I didn't even know what I was getting myself into. I had no idea who the 7 sisters where, or who Volo was (I thought the book Volo's guide to all things magical was a generic book not an FR one these people where talking about)

I spent levels (6 or 7) doing my best to run in the realms and my PCs tried to put up with my lack of knowledge, but it was grating on both sides.... you know who got the most annoyed... Tom (My brother in law and casual player) because he didn't care 1 lick for canon, and had never in his life played in a published setting before.

To this day I have players (mostly kurt, sometimes Ross, and a player who is 'newish' since 3.5) ask "I really want to play in the realms, can you run a realms game." and my answer is always the same "Sorry, Akbar say's that isn't in my best interest."

4e made it sooo much easier, time jump + limited canon. I could read 1 book (the campaign guide) and know everything that everyone else did. I didn't need to worry about a list of NPCs longer then my arm, or anything else...

I still don't get your situation here. Who are you pitching these questions to?

Do your players want you to run the Realms by canon?
 


I was responding to @SirAntoine who I quoted

yes... they want to play in the realms that they have read half a million pages of text on...

I'm sorry but I'm seeing an issue where you knew what your players wanted... knew you did not have the knowledge base to give it to them, but decided to run it anyway... and surprise they were disappointed. I mean you know what limit you want... one book, why not establish that as the continuity for your Realms and if they don't like it or want more... well then choose not to run it since you aren't going to make them happy (and more importantly as evidenced by your posts, you're not going to have fun running it).

EDIT: I'm sorry but I believe the campaign world and it's boundariesi/makeup are up to the DM and this illustrates a big reason i lean in that direction. He or she is the one ultimately running it, tracking it, keeping the continuity going, etc. So yeah if the players are asking for something you don't want to do or can't it's ok to limit or even deny what they are asking for.
 
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I'm sorry but I'm seeing an issue where you knew what your players wanted... knew you did not have the knowledge base to give it to them, but decided to run it anyway... and surprise they were disappointed. I mean you know what limit you want... one book, why not establish that as the continuity for your Realms and if they don't like it or want more... well then choose not to run it since you aren't going to make them happy (and more importantly as evidenced by your posts, you're not going to have fun running it).

EDIT: I'm sorry but I believe the campaign world and it's boundariesi/makeup are up to the DM and this illustrates a big reason i lean in that direction. He or she is the one ultimately running it, tracking it, keeping the continuity going, etc. So yeah if the players are asking for something you don't want to do or can't it's ok to limit or even deny what they are asking for.

Well, you are kind of missing the upshot here. What it means is that because of the sheer volume of canon, GM4PG cannot run the campaign, even if he wanted to, because he will never be steeped in the lore enough to satisfy his players.

I know that I wouldn't touch a Realms game with a ten foot pole for exactly that reason. There's just no way I could run it to the satisfaction of anyone who is keen on canon.

It's all very well and good to say, "Well, the DM has final say" but, at the end of the day, it means that the more canon you layer into a setting, the harder it is to run that setting.
 

I'm sorry but I'm seeing an issue where you knew what your players wanted... knew you did not have the knowledge base to give it to them, but decided to run it anyway... and surprise they were disappointed. I mean you know what limit you want... one book, why not establish that as the continuity for your Realms and if they don't like it or want more... well then choose not to run it since you aren't going to make them happy (and more importantly as evidenced by your posts, you're not going to have fun running it).

EDIT: I'm sorry but I believe the campaign world and it's boundariesi/makeup are up to the DM and this illustrates a big reason i lean in that direction. He or she is the one ultimately running it, tracking it, keeping the continuity going, etc. So yeah if the players are asking for something you don't want to do or can't it's ok to limit or even deny what they are asking for.
I don't think you understand the scope of the problem.

The Realms canon includes everything published by WotC (and TSR), which includes campaign guides. But it also includes novels (and there are scores of those) from many authors. It also includes modules produced over the past 20+ years.

A good portion of those older materials (1E and 2E) are out of print. The newer (3.0 and 3.5E) sourcebooks, of which there are dozens and all hardbacks, often pull snippets from the older materials but also include regional and historical updates. Now that we're into 5E, which doesn't have a campaign guide yet, you're lucky to find even 3.5E books - and WotC doesn't plan to make a campaign guide or even think about one until at least 2016 or later.

More than that, Realms canon includes anything Ed Greenwood has written about the Realms. This includes thousands of answers to fans, over decades, at the Candlekeep website - and these are dispersed through hundreds and hundreds of webpages at that site.

There are also scores of mini-articles, brief glances at various people and places in the Realms, many of which used to be hosted at WotC - and some still are, if the web links are still alive.

When someone says, "there's too much to catch up on" for new DMs, or even DMs that have been away from it for an edition or two, they really aren't kidding. It's impossible to know what your players have read and therefore expect you to know because all of those materials have never been collated into a single source or browsable location.

There's the FR wiki, but it contains a fraction of what's been deemed canon. And it's not always correct or thorough enough.

Beyond all of that, FR contains a HUGE amount of silly cheese, hundreds of overpowered epic characters, crazy gods wandering around like NPCs, and a host of other things you might want to edit out beforehand.

For example, most recently, the Realms overgod got mad at the main pantheon gods, decided to teach them a lesson because they were naughty, and in short order this led to the death of several well-liked gods, the magical nuking of the world, several outer planes being mashed together, another "twin" world crashing into the Realms and swapping out or obliterating entire nations. They also jumped the timeline ahead 100 years and didn't fill in any details of that period at all. This is now all being "undone" (at least in part), with the worlds moving apart and some gods/nations returning, but no one knows the extent or scope of those changes because there's no new campaign guide, only novels. And those novels don't provide but a few details.
 
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Well, you are kind of missing the upshot here. What it means is that because of the sheer volume of canon, GM4PG cannot run the campaign, even if he wanted to, because he will never be steeped in the lore enough to satisfy his players.

No I very much understand that but there are players out there who have a DM who is steeped in the lore that much and who enjoys running it at that level. I'm saying if you know your players are like that and you are not well then unrestrained FR is a bad fit for your group.

I know that I wouldn't touch a Realms game with a ten foot pole for exactly that reason. There's just no way I could run it to the satisfaction of anyone who is keen on canon.

I feel the same way about FR... So I don't run it for those people... or I make it very clear what book/books are canon... but that doesn't mean those who do enjoy it and like it at that level (DM's and players) shouldn't have it because you or I aren't willing to invest that much in it.

It's all very well and good to say, "Well, the DM has final say" but, at the end of the day, it means that the more canon you layer into a setting, the harder it is to run that setting.

No the harder it is for some DM's to run that setting (EDIT: thought I do believe there is a point of diminishing returns, the problem is that the point is different for each individual)... it could also be said for a certain type of DM that the more canon you layer into a setting the more fun it is for them to run games in it. I just don't agree that because I or you or someone else can't handle that level of detail (which is fully under the DM's control) that it's a reason to limit canon for all...
 
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