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How do you feel about nudity in RPG books?

Is Shindler's List in the bargain been?...

..I actually almost picked up Schindler's List the other day at Best Buy. It was in the $5 bucket. I just have way too many dvd's already. Maybe I need to go digital.

I am not advocating that. Re-read my posts. I am saying adult stories and drama can be added to games for mature players. Violence and sex need not be graphic or titillating. Watch "Veronica Mars". Hell, watch "Buffy The Vampire Slayer". BADD is a dead horse, RPGs are going mainstream. We're the cool ones now, we can stop acting afraid...

..I can understand your frustration with negative gaming stereotypes, I truly do. Now we have a much better opportunity to serve as positive examples of what gaming can truly do for individuals.
 

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..I actually almost picked up Schindler's List the other day at Best Buy. It was in the $5 bucket. I just have way too many dvd's already. Maybe I need to go digital.

Last I checked, Eyes Wide Shut was also in the bargain bin at my local stores. I've noticed a lot of movies past a certain age tend to end up there, no matter how artistic they are; I could pick up all of Hitchcock's works for $20 with ease.
 

Last I checked, Eyes Wide Shut was also in the bargain bin at my local stores. I've noticed a lot of movies past a certain age tend to end up there, no matter how artistic they are.

...Until someone remakes them. Then they all get pulled from the bins and repriced at $19.99.

...But back to the OP's question. I personally have no problem with nudes in RPG books.
 

So very true!

I also have no problem with nudes in RPG books as long as they serve a purpose that actually aids the book. In the books, not on the cover, just to keep people from screaming about it.
 

DVDs are going the way of VHS and Beta, everything is being converted to Blue Ray until digital downloads can finish taking over the market...
 

...I can understand your frustration with negative gaming stereotypes, I truly do. Now we have a much better opportunity to serve as positive examples of what gaming can truly do for individuals.

Exactly, which is why we need to stop being afraid of the dirty looks and angry moms and start being GREAT! What frustrates me most is the people I meet online who are scared to rock the boat and do something challenging and risky. Art must be dangerous to fulfill its potential. It is time we stepped up and broke out of the box and tackled serious stories!
 

Exactly, which is why we need to stop being afraid of the dirty looks and angry moms and start being GREAT! What frustrates me most is the people I meet online who are scared to rock the boat and do something challenging and risky. Art must be dangerous to fulfill its potential. It is time we stepped up and broke out of the box and tackled serious stories!

...It's not about fear, it's about thoroughly knowing your audience. Angry confrontations, especially in conservative areas, are simply going to further alienate people from your message. It's simply not an effective tactic when attempting to change people's minds.

...In the end, we win no converts by adopting the tactics of our foes. It's tempting, but ultimately futile. Patience, logical arguments and being good ambassadors for our hobby are far effective in many regions than getting into peoples' faces.

...The tide builds slowly, patient and unstoppable.
 
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What's the game and why is the nudity there?

Seriously, if you're writing something like Black Tokyo of course you want nudity. I'd really rather you didn't write something like Black Tokyo - but putting on your cover what the game is about will put off people who wouldn't want the game and attract those who would.

If you're trying for a genuinely mass market game (like D&D) you don't want nudity.

If you're trying to replicate specific source material (like The Dresden Files or better a hypothetical Game Of Thrones TV Series RPG) or a specific genre with a fair amount at least implied (like Monsterhearts) then you probably don't want actual nudity but you certainly want to approach that direction. And people who are offended by that line wouldn't be buying that game.
 

Take a look at the book Charnel Houses of Europe: The-Shoah for Wraith: The Oblivion, that entire supplement is devoted to role-playing victims of the Holocaust. That is about as grim and heavy as you can get. No giggles or squeals in this game. It was produced for a mature audience, you do not want 3rd graders playing this game. So what? It was brilliantly done. An RPG can handle any subject and be paced for any specific level of sophistication, it just has to be written well and marketed to the correct niche.

I agree that a lot of what came out for Wraith represented attempts at an RPG being high art.

I also feel that as written, much of it was unplayable as a game, and that it would have been the rare group that could have treated the subject matter justly even if it was playable. Wraith therefore was less RPG as high art, than RPG book as high art where the game itself existed only in the abstract. I admire some of the books, but in practice what I saw of Wraith largely ignored the artist's artistic intent and well was a bit tragic considering the text. For that matter, I feel the same about Vampire:The Masquerade and the sort of 'supers in black' and 'Machiavellian politics as game' that I saw as typical of play, and the sort of adventures written for the game didn't help it at all.

One thing that I learned in that time was that some sorts of game play weren't suited for multiple players. The sort of intimate character dramas that a lot of the indy gamers/designers see as the primary hall mark of being artistic gameplay just aren't suited to more than a GM and 1-2 players, or 2-3 players in a cooperative story game. More players generally requires splitting the groups into intimate sessions. And one of things that I've discovered about that is that by and large, the format of PnP games gets in the way. If you need 'safe words' for your RP play, you've moved on from some sort of 'game' in a strict sense and you are engaged in role play as it is used on other contexts. What I find is that medium matters here. There are a lot of things I tolerate and find acceptable in a book that I wouldn't find acceptable in a movie. What seems necessary and appropriate in one, can seem gratuitous and artless in another.

Without getting into where I draw various lines, which is of course personal, what I discovered was that 'play by post' or MUSE play could approach some areas of content - say romance - with more honesty than it could ever be done face to face. The distance was necessary. I feel quite safe in saying that when romantic RPG happens in a high degree between players in a PnP game being played in a traditional format, the thrill is often real and the play is often proxy play for the real thing. In fact, it's often inseparable from the real thing. Two players playing out heavy romance in a traditional PnP format are pretty much almost inevitably playing out a real romance. I've seen it lead to real life marriages. Certainly this was often even true of MUSE play, but at least in MUSE play there was distance. Conversely, often where romance would be reasonable in PnP play, the lack of distance suppresses it.

By the time you get to the level of intimacy of erotic play, any distinction between real life and game play is basically gone. If you engage in erotic play in a game, it's pretty much impossible to have distance between you and the character. This is probably true even at the MUSE level (I've never tested that, but feel safe in the claim based on observation), but it would certainly be the case in face to face play.

By comparison with non-interactive medium then, it follows that when you are introducing erotic content, even at just the level of nudity, you are introducing a very different element to your game than exists in non-interactive medium. Medium matters, and therefore different social standards of what is acceptable are understandable in that context.

Leaving aside any judgment regarding Monsterhearts as a game, the fact that it is a different medium than the subject matter that inspires it, changes the subject matter. Watching Buffy the Vampire slayer, you can hold the opinion, "These beliefs and actions are the beliefs and actions of the not self, and therefore don't reflect my own emotions, which can be different than the character I'm observing." This emotional distance is much less easy to hold when you are asked to play the character in a non-pawn stance - which quite explicitly you are being asked to do - even if it were possible to play that sort of game in an entirely pawn stance (even GM would IMO have a hard time doing so).

Anyway, my point is that in failing to address the medium in question and in attempting to copy what works in different art forms, often designers with artistic intent end up creating game books that work as art in the medium of a sort of literature, but not necessarily games that work as art. IMO, eroticism as intimacy is a sort of crude short cut to emotional exploration play - the sign of a designer yearning for mature emotional depth he finds lacking, but not knowing exactly how to get there. There are plenty of adult subjects in for example, something like 'To Kill a Mockingbird' or 'Les Miserables', which don't require short cuts to achieving emotional reactions. Even something like 'Lolita', if you accept that as high art, achieves that result with a striking lack of overt erotic content. Sometimes a brick to the face is required, but if that's the entirety of your artistic palette, well, something is wrong.

And I'm not convinced that loosening standards leads to better art, but even if it did I think we can agree that there is a difference between studying Lolita as art, reading Lolita, and 'Lolita: the Role Playing Game'.
 
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I think worries about nudity in RPGs or other material is generally overblown.

They definitely are overblown.

In my 48 years of life, I have seen U.S. culture swing back and forth over simple nudity, depictions of sex, etc. (in all forms of media). The gaming community as a whole has been on the conservative side for a number of years now. I look forward to when it loosens up again.
 

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