How do you feel about nudity in RPG books?

[nomotog]

When it comes to eroticism in table top games, I think I can count the number of games that do it on my hand. (That includes the one I am "making" myself.) And no they aren't all that popular. They tend to be kind of artistic endeavors that people make for a reason other then money. Ironically enough I tend to discover them in feminist gameing blogs. You don't really see it in more mainstream games for maybe the same reason you don't see eroticism on more mainstream movies.

One of my musings about the topic is who are you going to play with? I don't know the answer myself. The topic is a little intimate for most groups.

 

[Samloyal23]

Baloney! I have seen video games where players were allowed to rape and torture people. There have been books written about the idea of sex in RPGs. The only difference is that RPGs are a newer medium than books or the cinema. It is time for RPGs to diversify and grow up. Why NOT have a game based on a show like Veronica Mars or CSI? People watch those shows in prime time and they deal with real life criminal behaviour. Veronica lost her virginity at a party after being roofied. Finding the guy who did it was a major story arc for the series. No one led protests against the show or tried to get it banned. There was no graphic sex and it was handled maturely and the writing and acting won critical acclaim.

Take a look at the book Charnel Houses of Europe: The-Shoah for Wraith: The Oblivion, that entire supplement is devoted to role-playing victims of the Holocaust. That is about as grim and heavy as you can get. No giggles or squeals in this game. It was produced for a mature audience, you do not want 3rd graders playing this game. So what? It was brilliantly done. An RPG can handle any subject and be paced for any specific level of sophistication, it just has to be written well and marketed to the correct niche.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Baloney! I have seen video games where players were allowed to rape and torture people. There have been books written about the idea of sex in RPGs. The only difference is that RPGs are a newer medium than books or the cinema. It is time for RPGs to diversify and grow up. Why NOT have a game based on a show like Veronica Mars or CSI? People watch those shows in prime time and they deal with real life criminal behaviour. Veronica lost her virginity at a party after being roofied. Finding the guy who did it was a major story arc for the series. No one led protests against the show or tried to get it banned. There was no graphic sex and it was handled maturely and the writing and acting won critical acclaim.

Take a look at the book Charnel Houses of Europe: The-Shoah for Wraith: The Oblivion, that entire supplement is devoted to role-playing victims of the Holocaust. That is about as grim and heavy as you can get. No giggles or squeals in this game. It was produced for a mature audience, you do not want 3rd graders playing this game. So what? It was brilliantly done. An RPG can handle any subject and be paced for any specific level of sophistication, it just has to be written well and marketed to the correct niche.

I've also seen those video games. They're typically either Refused Rating or Adults Only, which pretty much completely destroys their ability to be sold within the United States. GTA 5 is about the only notable exception where the player actually does a lot of torture, and even then it's more the exception that proves the rule than an example that you can easily go far outside the norm.

Also note that it's only recently in television history that shows like CSI could even get on the air; for a long time, they were held to extremely high standards, while books were not. It takes time for standards to loosen; trying to push the envelope too early just gets you shut down hard. Just ask video game makers about why the ESRB had to exist and you'll get a good history lesson on just how badly trying to push beyond the currently accepted standards can backfire.

I'm not saying you can't produce an RPG supplement that deals with adult materials. That's done all of the time. I am saying that if you're expecting to revolutionize the industry by doing so that you're in for a massive disappointment. And I'm saying that if you want to make a profit, you seriously need to reexamine your idea and recognize that it's just not time yet.

Oh, and that charnel houses book? Note that they've since shied away from books like that in the time since. Just like WotC has shied away from products like the Book of Vile Darkness.

 

[was]

Baloney! I have seen video games where players were allowed to rape and torture people. There have been books written about the idea of sex in RPGs. The only difference is that RPGs are a newer medium than books or the cinema. It is time for RPGs to diversify and grow up.

...Wow, I did not even know there were video games with such content out there.

...The books that I have seen written about sex in rpgs so far have been pretty unimpressive and did not sell well.

...If the rest of the RPG community does not identify with these 'more progressive' values, that does not really make their games more limited or juvenile. I hardly think that the ability to fantasize about sex, or violent sexual crimes, is a valid indicator of maturity.

 

[Samloyal23]

...Wow, I did not even know there were video games with such content out there.

...The books that I have seen written about sex in rpgs so far have been pretty unimpressive and did not sell well.

...If the rest of the RPG community does not identify with these 'more progressive' values, that does not really make their games more limited or juvenile. I hardly think that the ability to fantasize about sex, or violent sexual crimes, is a valid indicator of maturity.

Not what I said. All media deal with a wide spectrum of human issues. We need RPGs that do the same. Shying away from politics, sex, religion, and other complex issues is just going to ensure that our hobby is never taken seriously. A role-playing game is a form of interactive storytelling theatre. Anything Quentin Tarantino, Stanley Kubrick, or Steven Bochco can do, so can we. An RPG is a work of art, art goes places people are often afraid of, but that is part of what makes them great. Sometimes it leads to disaster (remember "Cop Rock"?) but even then there may be moments of brilliance. There is no growth without pain and risk...

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Not what I said. All media deal with a wide spectrum of human issues. We need RPGs that do the same. Shying away from politics, sex, religion, and other complex issues is just going to ensure that our hobby is never taken seriously. A role-playing game is a form of interactive storytelling theatre. Anything Quentin Tarantino, Stanley Kubrick, or Steven Bochco can do, so can we. An RPG is a work of art, art goes places people are often afraid of, but that is part of what makes them great. Sometimes it leads to disaster (remember "Cop Rock"?) but even then there may be moments of brilliance. There is no growth without pain and risk...

Pick up Shadowrun or Numenera if you want to see sex covered.

Okay, yeah, it'll be artistic... and it'll be sitting on the bargain bin shelves before it's tossed in the dumpster. People don't buy RPGs for artistic purposes; they buy them to have fun. If you become focused on art, you lose focus of the reason why these games exist in the first place. And then, you become just another example of why it is RPGs shouldn't touch those topics.

 

[was]

Not what I said. All media deal with a wide spectrum of human issues. We need RPGs that do the same. Shying away from politics, sex, religion, and other complex issues is just going to ensure that our hobby is never taken seriously. A role-playing game is a form of interactive storytelling theatre. Anything Quentin Tarantino, Stanley Kubrick, or Steven Bochco can do, so can we. An RPG is a work of art, art goes places people are often afraid of, but that is part of what makes them great. Sometimes it leads to disaster (remember "Cop Rock"?) but even then there may be moments of brilliance. There is no growth without pain and risk...

...Embracing sexual violence, as a form of entertainment, will ensure recognition in a form that the gaming community definitely does not need.

...Be wary, that growth may be cancerous.

 

[Samloyal23]

Is Shindler's List in the bargain been? Is Eyes Wide Shut? Quality wins every time. No one keeps playing schlock over and over. What makes a game world "fun" is in part that it is a place where engaging, gripping tales can be wrought. When you play you are an actor and a storyteller, there is an art to portraying a character in a game. Do you keep playing games with vague, badly edited descriptions of locations? No, you play in setting that are described in ways that capture your imagination! That is ART!

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Schindler's List isn't a game. Eyes Wide Shut isn't a game. Those examples are irrelevant.

Quality does win every time. I'm telling you that you are mistaken as to what a quality RPG actually is.

Also, if "no one keeps playing schlock over and over," then why does DnD have a 31-year publication history spanning five editions? Why is it the RPG that still influences how tabletop gaming is played? Why is the most successful RPG on the market just a houseruled version of 3.5E? Why is a company like Paizo known for their good AP when, realistically, compared to books and movies (like you want to do) they are little more than amateurs at best?

And vague, badly-edited descriptions of places... have you read anything about Golarion? By most art standards, that setting should have crashed and burned; yet it remains a heavily played setting that gets continual support and continues to sell a lot of products, and adventure paths set in it remain widely popular. Despite the fact that, by even the most basic standards of artistic setting writing, it would be a compliment to call Golarion utter crap. But, then Golarion wasn't designed to be art; it was designed to be fun. And that is why it works so well. And that is why it continues to sell products.

Also, speaking as someone who has an actual degree in Creative Writing? You are not describing art. You are describing the basic requirements for coherent story writing. Just following those basic requirements doesn't produce anything like the works of Shakespeare; it instead produces the dime-store trash novels you frequently don't even bother to read.

 

[Samloyal23]

...Embracing sexual violence, as a form of entertainment, will ensure recognition in a form that the gaming community definitely does not need.

...Be wary, that growth maybe cancerous.

I am not advocating that. Re-read my posts. I am saying adult stories and drama can be added to games for mature players. Violence and sex need not be graphic or titillating. Watch "Veronica Mars". Hell, watch "Buffy The Vampire Slayer". BADD is a dead horse, RPGs are going mainstream. We're the cool ones now, we can stop acting afraid...