D&D 5E RE: Tarasque vs. 5th lv. Wizard scenario - how does Wizard know to use Acid Splash?!?

[Fanaelialae]

My father had a golden retriever that was very smart, and part of the family, one day my step sister came home to find it very hurt and bleeding, she pulled through but boy was my dad pissed. a couple of jerk kids about early teens stood 15 feet from her (she was on a 10 foot chain) and pelted her with rocks after school...

now that dog would kill for my dad, and was the smartest dog I ever meet. She never thought to throw a rock back... I currently have a rather normal intelligence mini schnauzer... he is a snaper and a loud barker... but a leash stops him, and as such I assume all dogs.

The big T is about on par with a smart dog... what makes you think it is anymore likely to develop an new unique strategy?





to both of you... This is not some "well the orc can do what the PC can do" situation... it is the INt 3 Tarrasque... so stop asking stupid "Can you pee?" quastions look at this case, a CR30 ANIMAL intellect with no defense against ranged attacks, and by the rules no way to reatch some targets

It's not perfectly clear that the Tarrasque has an animal intellect. While the MM Mastiff does have an Int 3, so might a Half-Orc Fighter, and I don't think most DMs would question the latter's ability to throw objects.

Besides, even if we assume that the Tarrasque's intellect is equivalent to that of a smart animal (as opposed to a very dumb human), the Tarrasque is potentially eons old. In that time it may have picked up a few tricks that a dog (with a lifespan of one or two decades) wouldn't. Elephants, for example, are long lived animals that are known to throw objects.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, how many people have played an int 3 any race?

 

[Fanaelialae]

OK, how many people have played an int 3 any race?

I have. His name was Rok. His only skill was Craft: Snow (we were in an cold setting and his favorite activity was making snowmen, although occasionally the party could convince him to build walls and other useful things). Catch phrase: "Rok am builder."

 

[SilverfireSage]

My father had a golden retriever that was very smart, and part of the family, one day my step sister came home to find it very hurt and bleeding, she pulled through but boy was my dad pissed. a couple of jerk kids about early teens stood 15 feet from her (she was on a 10 foot chain) and pelted her with rocks after school...

now that dog would kill for my dad, and was the smartest dog I ever meet. She never thought to throw a rock back... I currently have a rather normal intelligence mini schnauzer... he is a snaper and a loud barker... but a leash stops him, and as such I assume all dogs.

The big T is about on par with a smart dog... what makes you think it is anymore likely to develop an new unique strategy?

False equivalency. A dog doesn't have the physiology to throw anything, lacking opposable digits as well as joints that would provide the ability to throw things. The Tarrasque, judging by the picture, seems to have a much more bipedal gait with its front legs for support, similar to a lizardlike gorilla, and seems to have the flexibility necessary to throw something, especially considering its large and long phalanges. Now, if we are going to go by the intelligence score (which I'd like to point out is a completely arbitrary mechanic designed to give an overall definition of something's intelligence, and not at all a specific modifier to the actions the creature can perform) then I'll point to the Bear as having a lower intelligence, but a quick glance on youtube finds videos of bears able to "throw" things even without hands necessary to grasp the ball properly. A baboon only has a 1 higher intelligence, and I think we're all aware of their throwing capabilities. Even an elephant has a 3 intelligence, and they've been known to show empathy for other elephants, use their trunks to throw grass and mud on themselves to stay cool, and even PAINT. Like legitimately paint pictures of themselves and others. So if we're extrapolating the abilities of one Int 3 creature to another, this means that the tarrasque, given the impetus, will be able to paint things, but we're trying to say it won't be able to throw something to defend itself?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Without being rude your example is beyond irritating and quite frankly disprectful to your dads dog. Using an emotional experiance to like that to wrongly represent the example im making is rather disgusting. A 3 inteligance monster, other than running away blindly or thrashing, would indeed just stand there, especially if tied up good point. So what is the problem with the ing scenario you all described in the first place? If your argument is now that this monster is too stupid to even thrash wildly, flinging depris in all directions and the charecters or even just run away because its tied up some how THEN IT WOULD JUST STAND THERE AND DIE and we are completelly correct that no further editions other than your imagination in understanding this was required and your pathetic attempt at distracting from that you should be quite ahsamed off really

"Thrashing wildly, flinging debris in all directions" is unlikely to launch a real ranged attack, i.e. further than its body length. If the Tarrasque thrashes wildly, he won't be throwing houses 240' ranges as suggested earlier in this thread, and therefore he won't be a threat to the fighter with a long bow at all, and maybe not to the wizard with Acid Splash either.

I went back and re-read the AD&D 2nd edition version of the Tarrasque. I noted a few things about the AD&D Tarrasque:

1.) It's not the "most feared monster," it is the most dreaded monster native to the Prime Material Plane. Big difference.
2.) It automatically causes fear-induced paralysis in any creature under 3 HD who can see it, at any range, and likewise causes those under 7 HD to automatically flee. There is no range limit and no saving throw. In my mind, this ability alone is sufficient to justify its reputation as Most Dreaded Monster, even if its actual combat stats were those of a giant space hamster. "Frightens everybody" = "reputation for being frightening." If the 5E monster had this ability, there would be question at all whether the 5th level wizard could kill it: of course he can't, he's too busy running away.
3.) Unstoppable regeneration of course is a big deal. You cannot kill it permanently without a wish--although of course there is nothing to prevent you from being clever and polymorphing it, dropping it into a volcano, or simply chaining it to the bottom of the sea so it can drown over and over. But you can't just kill it once with magic arrows and be done.
4.) Totally immune to all psionics is a nice touch. Unfortunately it's not immune to all magic, so there's a huge vulnerability nevertheless.
5.) There are specific guidelines on how active it is. It will attack and then sleep for 4d4 years, and the ratio of sleeping:active seems to be about 30:1.

This suggests two simple changes you could make to the 5E Tarrasque to make it a worthy foe:

1.) Give it unstoppable regeneration: 10 HP per round, negatable only by Wishing it dead while it is at 0 HP.
2.) Also, take the range limit off its Frightful Presence and nix the "immune for 24 hours" bit.

Voila! Tarrasque now deserves its reputation again.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have. His name was Rok. His only skill was Craft: Snow (we were in an cold setting and his favorite activity was making snowmen, although occasionally the party could convince him to build walls and other useful things). Catch phrase: "Rok am builder."

that sound cool, but even you have to admit it is a rare story...and 3e,4e,and5e don't really assume PCs are using 3's as stats

 

[GMforPowergamers]

"Thrashing wildly, flinging debris in all directions" is unlikely to launch a real ranged attack, i.e. further than its body length. If the Tarrasque thrashes wildly, he won't be throwing houses 240' ranges as suggested earlier in this thread, and therefore he won't be a threat to the fighter with a long bow at all, and maybe not to the wizard with Acid Splash either.

I went back and re-read the AD&D 2nd edition version of the Tarrasque. I noted a few things about the AD&D Tarrasque:

1.) It's not the "most feared monster," it is the most dreaded monster native to the Prime Material Plane. Big difference.
2.) It automatically causes fear-induced paralysis in any creature under 3 HD who can see it, at any range, and likewise causes those under 7 HD to automatically flee. There is no range limit and no saving throw. In my mind, this ability alone is sufficient to justify its reputation as Most Dreaded Monster, even if its actual combat stats were those of a giant space hamster. "Frightens everybody" = "reputation for being frightening." If the 5E monster had this ability, there would be question at all whether the 5th level wizard could kill it: of course he can't, he's too busy running away.
3.) Unstoppable regeneration of course is a big deal. You cannot kill it permanently without a wish--although of course there is nothing to prevent you from being clever and polymorphing it, dropping it into a volcano, or simply chaining it to the bottom of the sea so it can drown over and over. But you can't just kill it once with magic arrows and be done.
4.) Totally immune to all psionics is a nice touch. Unfortunately it's not immune to all magic, so there's a huge vulnerability nevertheless.
5.) There are specific guidelines on how active it is. It will attack and then sleep for 4d4 years, and the ratio of sleeping:active seems to be about 30:1.

This suggests two simple changes you could make to the 5E Tarrasque to make it a worthy foe:

1.) Give it unstoppable regeneration: 10 HP per round, negatable only by Wishing it dead while it is at 0 HP.
2.) Also, take the range limit off its Frightful Presence and nix the "immune for 24 hours" bit.

Voila! Tarrasque now deserves its reputation again.

all great ideas...

 

[billd91]

that sound cool, but even you have to admit it is a rare story...and 3e,4e,and5e don't really assume PCs are using 3's as stats

They mostly assume you've probably rolled higher. But I think it's reasonably clear that there's no rule against it, should the dice roll against you that badly.

 

[Fanaelialae]

that sound cool, but even you have to admit it is a rare story...and 3e,4e,and5e don't really assume PCs are using 3's as stats

Granted, it is very rare. In many years of playing D&D, I've only seen a handful of PCs with a 3 in any stat (although in that same campaign, we had an archer with a 3 Str - one of the few times I've seen encumbrance limits actually matter, since he could only carry a few arrows along with his bow).

However, although the various editions don't assume PCs with a 3 stat they do allow for it, indicating that a 3 Int creature is at least somewhat sentient. IMO, a 3 Int creature at least has the potential to understand the concept of throwing which, admittedly, doesn't mean it actually does. Whether it can or not is up to the DM to decide.

I'd obviously say the Tarrasque can. IMO, it's probably flung enough debris around while destroying countless towns that it's picked up a thing or two about chucking things, albeit without great accuracy.

 

[aramis erak]

False equivalency. A dog doesn't have the physiology to throw anything, lacking opposable digits as well as joints that would provide the ability to throw things.

I've seen dogs throw things. Not very far, but my springer would throw his ball at you from about 4 feet away, using his mouth.

I've seen a number of dogs do similar. Some shake sideways and let go, others flip the head from down to up, but throwing is well within a dog's behavioral repertoire.

Throwing well? That's another matter. But having had a rawhide hit me in the shins because Ron's alsatian lost her grip while shaking the living daylights out of it, it sure felt like a throw for effect!