D&D 5E RE: Tarasque vs. 5th lv. Wizard scenario - how does Wizard know to use Acid Splash?!?

[Wrathamon]

15 minutes presumes prior knowledge of how many h.p. it has, which might not be the "mere" 600+ you expect. As I mentioned before, it could legitimately, by-the-book have 900+ h.p.

With regards to the Tarasque not having the ability to throw objects listed in its stat block, that's because it is an implicit, improvised action which the rules allow ANYONE with appropriate limbs to take. Listing every damn thing a creature could do in its stat block would needlessly eat up page after page of the Monster Manual, just to fend off people who make arguments of this sort. Arguing that the Tarasque can't throw rocks because it's not listed in its stat block is like a DM arguing that your PC can't breathe because nowhere on your Character sheet does it specify that you can. Any monster or PC can take any action that would be physically plausible given that creature's anatomy and ability scores (i.e. a Pixie couldn't throw a huge rock, because it's not strong enough, not because rock throwing isn't listed in the Pixie stat block.)

Now, can the tarasque throw that rock AS WELL as a giant could? Probably not, since giants specialize in that kind of attack and for them it's not an improvised action. How well the Tarasque throws the rock depends on its Dexterity score. So it might not hit the Wizard right away, but it certainly can try!

Maybe the next Monster Manual need to have a page right at the front that says, in bold letters:

"ATTENTION RULES LAWYERS! ALL MONSTERS IN THIS BOOK POSSESS THE ABILITY TO TAKE INPROVISED ACTIONS NOT LISTED IN THEIR STAT BLOCKS. THE ABILITIES PROVIDED IN THE STAT BLOCKS REPRESENT TYPICAL ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE CREATURES, NOT AN EXHAUSTIVE LISTING OF EVERYTHING THE CREATURES CAN DO. HAVING THE MONSTER DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT IS 100% LEGAL AND LEGITIMATE PROVIDED THE ACTION IS WITHIN THE CREATURE'S PHYSICAL CAPACITY."

But, some are claiming that it is too stupid to know to pick up a rock and throw it. Which is debatable and a legit argument. But, that is saying "throwing a rock" instead of describing it has flinging a spray of debris (dirt, rocks, plants) which even dumb animals can do when overly frustrated.

 

[Anthony Terry]

I think the whole point of this scenario is to prove they didn't do a very good job building the monsters in this edition. A high level monster should be able to deal with flying enemeis with abilities in his stat block.

Jump ability, sonic scream, throw debris ability, calls down Gamera, pretty much anything at all to deal with a ranged attacker.

It is almost like they didn't learn anything from the first few decades of gaming.

I didn't realise they were designing a war game. Could you inlighten me why, when designing an rpg monster, should one make sure that a creature of high power has something on their stat block to deal with flying creatures. This is beyond the most strange thing i have ever read on the internet sir please enlighten me... Last time i checked a T-rex cant take out a plane, but strangely enough im pretty scared of meeting a t-rex still, whether i have access to a plane or not. Tounge and cheek i know but i think your viewing this obsurdly and should read the suggestions put forward by others, such as the fact he could just pick up something and throw it at you quite easily, that required 4 seconds of imagination and is the corner stone of the game?

 

[Paraxis]

I didn't realise they were designing a war game. Could you inlighten me why, when designing an rpg monster, should one make sure that a creature of high power has something on their stat block to deal with flying creatures. This is beyond the most strange thing i have ever read on the internet sir please enlighten me... Last time i checked a T-rex cant take out a plane, but strangely enough im pretty scared of meeting a t-rex still, whether i have access to a plane or not. Tounge and cheek i know but i think your viewing this absurdly and should read the suggestions put forward by others, such as the fact he could just pick up something and throw it at you quite easily, that required 4 seconds of imagination and is the corner stone of the game?

I think you are a little late to the conversation, but I will address your concerns with my comment.

They should design an rpg monster to make sure it can deal with expected oppenents (the PC) because it is a GAME! Yeah I know way to many people focus on the first part of role playing game, but that word game is still there. There are rules for building encounters and monsters have CR values for a reason, they are supposed to be a challenge to certain level of player characters. At the level a Tarrasque is CR 30, flight is expected through spells, mounts, or magic items high level characters fly.

If you read the rest of the thread you will see there is much debate about how to implement your 4 seconds of imagination. My question to you is why didn't the designers take just a little more than 4 seconds and input some more thought into the creation of this monster?

 

[Anthony Terry]

I think you are a little late to the conversation, but I will address your concerns with my comment.

They should design an rpg monster to make sure it can deal with expected oppenents (the PC) because it is a GAME! Yeah I know way to many people focus on the first part of role playing game, but that word game is still there. There are rules for building encounters and monsters have CR values for a reason, they are supposed to be a challenge to certain level of player characters. At the level a Tarrasque is CR 30, flight is expected through spells, mounts, or magic items high level characters fly.

If you read the rest of the thread you will see there is much debate about how to implement your 4 seconds of imagination. My question to you is why didn't the designers take just a little more than 4 seconds and input some more thought into the creation of this monster?

Because why would every monster in the world have a way to deal with fly? How is the game designer meant to write 30 pages for each monster describing how it could use every possible piece of environment and intelligence? If your suggesting the writer of the module should of put this effort in, then perhaps maybe your right but i still disagree as would just about every significant writer in the rpg industry for about the last 30 years otherwise theyd be doing it. The inventor of the genre in his own writings, and probably you can find him suggesting such countless times on this very forum, suggests things like this are always best left to the imagination of the dungeon master because who better to know what his players expect and what best suits the situation hes designed?

What your asking for is a computer game sir, where the imagination is limited by the bounds of a stat block and what it is realistically capable of simulating and the fact you can try and preach to me about the word game as justification and be supported in this thread by others leaves me rather surprised to be frank. I dont mean to be rude, clearly others have this issue and i dont mean to single you out or make a personal attack, its just a personal issue to me clearly. But i honestly can not see what your asking for as needed, untill reading this thread the idea of it wouldnt of even occured to me as an issue.

 

[Elderbrain]

This is exactly why IMPROVISED ACTIONS are allowed... to avoid having to cover every possible scenario imaginable in a monster's stat block (which is impossible, anyway). But for some people, an action somehow isn't "legitimate" or "real" unless it is specifically incorporated into every bloody monster's stat block text. So I guess PCs and monsters also can't drink, eat, breathe, or excrete, unless specifically called out? O.k, everyone, start making your suffocation, starvation and dehydration rolls... and boy do you ever need to go, but gee! guess you'll have to hold it, your Character sheet doesn't say your character can urinate...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My father had a golden retriever that was very smart, and part of the family, one day my step sister came home to find it very hurt and bleeding, she pulled through but boy was my dad pissed. a couple of jerk kids about early teens stood 15 feet from her (she was on a 10 foot chain) and pelted her with rocks after school...

now that dog would kill for my dad, and was the smartest dog I ever meet. She never thought to throw a rock back... I currently have a rather normal intelligence mini schnauzer... he is a snaper and a loud barker... but a leash stops him, and as such I assume all dogs.

The big T is about on par with a smart dog... what makes you think it is anymore likely to develop an new unique strategy?

Because why would every monster in the world have a way to deal with fly? How is the game designer meant to write 30 pages for each monster describing how it could use every possible piece of environment and intelligence?

What your asking for is a computer game sir, where the imagination is limited by the bounds of a stat block and what it is realistically capable of simulating and the fact you can try and preach to me about the word game as justification and be supported in this thread by others leaves me rather surprised to be frank.

This is exactly why IMPROVISED ACTIONS are allowed... to avoid having to cover every possible scenario imaginable in a monster's stat block (which is impossible, anyway). But for some people, an action somehow isn't "legitimate" or "real" unless it is specifically incorporated into every bloody monster's stat block text. So I guess PCs and monsters also can't drink, eat, breathe, or excrete, unless specifically called out? O.k, everyone, start making your suffocation, starvation and dehydration rolls... and boy do you ever need to go, but gee! guess you'll have to hold it, your Character sheet doesn't say your character can urinate...

to both of you... This is not some "well the orc can do what the PC can do" situation... it is the INt 3 Tarrasque... so stop asking stupid "Can you pee?" quastions look at this case, a CR30 ANIMAL intellect with no defense against ranged attacks, and by the rules no way to reatch some targets

 

[Elderbrain]

I'm pretty sure your dad's dog didn't have arms, which is the real reason it didn't throw any rocks back. The Tarasque, on the other hand, has a nice pair of humanoid arms, complete with hands to grasp with. No question that it COULD throw rocks if it thought of it. Now with regards to intelligence, please note that PCs (who can certainly throw rocks) may legally have an INT score as low as 3 on a die roll of 3d6.

And YES, the rules for improvised weapons are part of the rules as just as legitimate as any rules in the MM. Letting the Tarasque throw rocks is NOT like adding a breath weapon or resistance/immunity to acid. The idea that only material covered in the MM applies to monsters is bogus! When you say "by the rules, it has no way to reach some targets", what you REALLY mean is the rules in the statblock, which are NOT ALL OF THE RULES!!!

(BTW, sorry about your dad's dog... hope you called the cops on the s.o.b.s that did that!)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

(BTW, sorry about your dad's dog... hope you called the cops on the s.o.b.s that did that!)

it was many years ago now, and unfortunately one of the kids was the son of a big cop in town... so nothing came of it other then her becoming an indoor dog.

 

[Anthony Terry]

My father had a golden retriever that was very smart, and part of the family, one day my step sister came home to find it very hurt and bleeding, she pulled through but boy was my dad pissed. a couple of jerk kids about early teens stood 15 feet from her (she was on a 10 foot chain) and pelted her with rocks after school...

now that dog would kill for my dad, and was the smartest dog I ever meet. She never thought to throw a rock back... I currently have a rather normal intelligence mini schnauzer... he is a snaper and a loud barker... but a leash stops him, and as such I assume all dogs.

The big T is about on par with a smart dog... what makes you think it is anymore likely to develop an new unique strategy?





to both of you... This is not some "well the orc can do what the PC can do" situation... it is the INt 3 Tarrasque... so stop asking stupid "Can you pee?" quastions look at this case, a CR30 ANIMAL intellect with no defense against ranged attacks, and by the rules no way to reatch some targets

Without being rude your example is beyond irritating and quite frankly disprectful to your dads dog. Using an emotional experiance to like that to wrongly represent the example im making is rather disgusting. A 3 inteligance monster, other than running away blindly or thrashing, would indeed just stand there, especially if tied up good point. So what is the problem with the ing scenario you all described in the first place? If your argument is now that this monster is too stupid to even thrash wildly, flinging depris in all directions and the charecters or even just run away because its tied up some how THEN IT WOULD JUST STAND THERE AND DIE and we are completelly correct that no further editions other than your imagination in understanding this was required and your pathetic attempt at distracting from that you should be quite ahsamed off really

 

[Umbran]

That's only true in versions of the tales told by ape-descendents, however.

Lizardfolk and intelligent dinosaurs tell the true version of what happened on Skull Island...

When a lizard-person or intelligent dinosaur actually shows up, then we can have that discussion.

Brian Williams does not count - he's still an ape, just in the News business. The distinction may be subtle, but it is important.