D&D 5E I think Wizards balances classes using damage on a single target nova over 3 rounds.

[Vaalingrade]

The important thing is that people who want an improved fighter can't say two words without being shouted down and bogged down in pointless minutia designed to stymie actual discussion of the subject.

 

[ECMO3]

The important thing is that people who want an improved fighter can't say two words without being shouted down and bogged down in pointless minutia designed to stymie actual discussion of the subject.

I feel like it is the other way around. Some people who want an improved fighter just demand it and don't want to hear that it is ok as is or that most people like it as is and they dismiss out of hand any evidence brought to the discussion suggesting it should not be improved.

 

[Incenjucar]

I feel like it is the other way around. Some people who want an improved fighter just demand it and don't want to hear that it is ok as is or that most people like it as is and they dismiss out of hand any evidence brought to the discussion suggesting it should not be improved.

This feels like "Most people's feet feel fine why do you keep complaining about yours being stepped on?"

 

[Emberashh]

Much like a certain phrase in economics, in DND people simply can't and refuse to imagine an edition without busted mages.

And this is yet another topic where we all gather together and haggle against ourselves to satisfy the assumed whims of people not participating in the discussion.**

As Ive said before and time again, magic doesn't have to be busted to still be cool; its magic, its inherently cool as long as its functional. None of the busted parts of the Wizard or any other caster are actually essential to deliver what people like about them.

Remember, the assumption that Wizards "have to be" busted is an assertion literally no one in this topic agrees with, and one that was quite literally conjured out of thin air.

The important thing is that people who want an improved fighter can't say two words without being shouted down and bogged down in pointless minutia designed to stymie actual discussion of the subject.

There is a difference between "improved" and "chased casters up the bad game design tree".

The game design perspective is, apparently, heavily devalued in these arguments when its really critical to pay attention to it.

You can "fix" anything by making it frickin busted. That doesn't make that "fix" the right thing to do.

**rereading, there apparently is one person with this opinion in the topic for a change. Once in a blue moon one appears I suppose.

 

[ECMO3]

This feels like "Most people's feet feel fine why do you keep complaining about yours being stepped on?"

Exactly! The minority of people just say it not stepping on my toes to boost the fighter because they are going to be fine with the Superman fighter they want, their feet are not going to be hurt. The fact that it will make the game worse for me and others or "step on our feet" does not matter to them.

The real reason this is such a problem is changing the fighter to make him Superman hurts EVERYONE who wants the fighter to stay where it is, and that includes both people who play fighters and like the current fighter and people who play other classes who want to keep the fighter in a support role. It will step on ALL of our toes, those playing the fighter and those not playing the fighter. The only people it will help (or I should say possibly help) are that small minority of players who want to play a Fighter with a large, leading role, and Superman powers. Those people want that but refuse to pick a class more suited to that style of play.

I have offered reasons why it should not change, both thematic reasons and personality-driven reasons. I have offered anecdotes showing how the current class works those are just dismissed out of hand because they are not "proof", while the opposing side offers no proof of their own. I've endorsed compromise solutions, like another class, but that is not good enough. The people who want to "fix" the fighter are only interested in fixes that hurt a large portion of the gaming population and "step on their feet".

 

[Incenjucar]

Exactly! Most people just say it not stepping on my toes to boost the fighter because they are going to be fine with the Superman fighter they want. The fact that it will make the game worse for me and others or "step on our feet" does not matter to them.

The real reason this is such a problem is changing the fighter hurts EVERYONE who wants the fighter to stay where it is, and that includes both people who play fighters and people who play other classes who want to keep the fighter in a support role. It will step on ALL of our toes, those playing the fighter and those not playing the fighter. The only people it will help (or I should say possibly help) are that small minority of players who want to play a character with a large, leading role, and who refuse to pick a class more suited to that style of play.

Just don't allow it in your game.

If you suffer from someone else having a thing you are stepping on your own foot.

 

[ECMO3]

Just don't allow it in your game.

If you suffer from someone else having a thing you are stepping on your own foot.

It is not someone else. I play fighters, I want to keep playing fighters, others at the tables I DM want to keep playing fighters. People at my table (and I believe most players) want fighters in the game, but in their proper place. This is not a solution. As I said this steps on ALL of our toes.

Instead why don't we just keep the current fighter and why don't you just play something else and let those who like the fighter play it?

If the limitations of the class you are choosing to play hurts you, and you want to play with a style different than the class mechanics afford, then you are stepping on your own foot by playing that class. No one else is stepping on your toes.

You can easily do that without hurting the game for someone else.

 

[Incenjucar]

It is not someone else. I play fighters, I want to keep playing fighters, others at the tables I DM want to keep playing fighters. People at my table (and I believe most players) want fighters in the game, but in their proper place. This is not a solution. As I said this steps on ALL of our toes.

Instead why don't we just keep the current fighter and why don't you just play something else and let those who like the fighter play it?

If the limitations of the class you are choosing to play hurts you, and you want to play with a style different than the class mechanics afford, then you are stepping on your own foot by playing that class. No one else is stepping on your toes.

You can easily do that without hurting the game for someone else.

You can continue playing your sidekick fighter. They just need to add a full PC class version.

 

[ECMO3]

You can continue playing your sidekick fighter. They just need to add a full PC class version.

No, you can just add a subclass that does Olympic feats or homebrew someing if that is really important instead of ruining the game for everyone else.

Fighter is a full PC class already, and the class is thematically intended not to do reality-bending things. That is not what it is. That is what full casters are for.

I have no problem with playing against archetype, but the class mechanics should not facilitate that, you should need to purposely do it through feats, subclasses, where you put your abilities etc.

Another thing you can do - just don't allow casters in your game. Then your fighters can run around being the most powerful. Sure if people want to play a Wizard or a Cleric or a Ranger that sucks for them, but it is good for you right!

In the end WOTC is probably going to muck up the fighter a little, make it slightly more powerful through things like weapon mastery. They are not going to make it the equivalent of Wizard though. Depending on how bad they screw it up I might keep playing 5E and not move to the new version (not sure what it is being called now).

 

[Incenjucar]

No, you can just add a subclass that does Olympic feats or homebrew someing if that is really important instead of ruining the game for everyone else.

Fighter is a full PC class, and the class is thematically intended not to do reality-bending things. That is not what it is.

That just robs players of a full class' worth options.

You can keep your version of the fighter while those of us who prefer equitable play can have a version that is equitable and you can ban it from your games the same way I banned Dragonmarks in my games.