D&D 5E I think Wizards balances classes using damage on a single target nova over 3 rounds.


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Pedantic

Legend
But a fighter that is properly balanced against the wizard is pretty much improved by definition. It's impossible to make a fighter-similar class that is as powerful as a wizard that is not more powerful than the fighter.
I don't think that point is actually that controversial, unless we're humoring the "best at combat....do it all day!....not at my table...." folks, and the entire project requires we don't.

The controversial point is that I don't think "Fighter" as an archetype scales, and a "Mythic Martial" (already a cop-out, because it doesn't name an actual power-source to justify the character's appropriately high leveled abilities) must be something else. Ideally something that still holds a sword while doing level appropriate things.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I don't think that point is actually that controversial, unless we're humoring the "best at combat....do it all day!....not at my table...." folks, and the entire project requires we don't.

The controversial point is that I don't think "Fighter" as an archetype scales, and a "Mythic Martial" (already a cop-out, because it doesn't name an actual power-source to justify the character's appropriately high leveled abilities) must be something else. Ideally something that still holds a sword while doing level appropriate things.
Sure, the Fighter in D&D scales fine.
 



Yes. I'm not objecting to the existance of such a martial because to me it sounds awesome.

Great! Another person that is ok with a Mythic Martial class and leaving the Fighter alone for those that want it, right?

ECMO3 can verify but my understanding of their position is:

  • spellcasters are fine as they are
  • Fighters are fine as they are and create a certain game aesthetic we like, regardless of power
  • they are ok with another mythic martial class existing and being more powerful than the existing Fighter and doing "supernatural" stuff as long as the existing Fighter also exists and is supported.

I can 100% coexist with this position.

Especially if the new Mythic Martial has options to be fairly "mundane" say levels 1-7 or 1-10 then I might not understand why its so important to keep the existing Fighter, but i'm not going to push to take away this option for those that like it.
 

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
Great! Another person that is ok with a Mythic Martial class and leaving the Fighter alone for those that want it, right?

ECMO3 can verify but my understanding of their position is:

  • spellcasters are fine as they are
  • Fighters are fine as they are and create a certain game aesthetic we like, regardless of power
  • they are ok with another mythic martial class existing and being more powerful than the existing Fighter and doing "supernatural" stuff as long as the existing Fighter also exists and is supported.

I can 100% coexist with this position.

Especially if the new Mythic Martial has options to be fairly "mundane" say levels 1-7 or 1-10 then I might not understand why its so important to keep the existing Fighter, but i'm not going to push to take away this option for those that like it.
My optimal solution is that all martial classes are buffed, but I'd take a mythic martial as a consolation prize.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I think us Mythic Martial fans should be clearer on this. I try to always talk about a new Mythic Martial class to make this clear, but probably sometimes slip.

Many people use fighter as stand in for "non spellcasting martial hero that has primarily a physical mode of power which could or could not be a new class", Which I agree is confusing.

But I still don't see many/most people saying the current Fighter class absolutely must go. Especially from the Mythic Martial people. Myself, Micah, Insenjucar, and many others liking those posts have all said keep the Fighter explicitly.

There are also "marginally improve the Fighter" people that get mixed in which may have different views.

I said in another one of these threads that its like we all have to list our assumptions/framing at the top of each post so we know what frame the person is coming from. Otherwise we are just talking past each other.

My assumptions when I talk about the Mythic Martial class:

  • Spellcasters will remain the same
  • Leave the Fighter as is for those that want it
  • Create a new Mythic Martial class in a optional splatbook that is no more versatile and powerful than the Wizard and allowed to be designed by fans of the archetype without catering to people who don't want it or won't play it.

If we are nerfing casters then maybe I don't need Hulk in the game and I'd have a different view. But that is a whole different conversation...

I am fine with any new class (well maybe any except a Warlord, I don't want another one of them).

I am fine with a more powerful Mystic Martial. I am fine with a new caster class that is even more powerful than a Wizard or a new caster less powerful than a current Wizard. I am not fine with changing the current classes, nerfing the current spells or buffing the current fighter in a fashion other than giving it spells. Most of the classes that exist now need to be available at their current power level and with few changes IMO.

I would disagree with the assertion that many who complain about the fighter being weak would be ok with a new more powerful mystic martial class. I think they would be upset that you made that class instead of buffing the fighter. They would say that there is yet another class that is more powerful than the fighter and that the balance is worse and the Fighter needs to be brought up to the same power level as the Mystic Martial. They will say the same things about the Mystic Martial being too powerful much like they are currently saying about the Wizard being too powerful.

At the end of the day I think there is a small minority of players that want a more powerful fighter but don't want that power to come from magic. I think there is a small minority of that small minority that would be satisfied with a new class that accomplished that.
 
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ECMO3

Hero
But a fighter that is properly balanced against the wizard is pretty much improved by definition. It's impossible to make a fighter-similar class that is as powerful as a wizard that is not more powerful than the fighter.

It will be more powerful. That is the whole point, I don't want to make the fighter more powerful. I want to keep the fighter where it is relative to Wizards and other casters.

This is what I am talking about in the post above. I think there are a lot of people who will be upset with a 2nd more powerful non-casting, weapon-using martial and will not accept a Mystic Marital because if this.
 

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