D&D 5E I think Wizards balances classes using damage on a single target nova over 3 rounds.


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Scribe

Legend
Fighter is a full PC class already, and the class is thematically intended not to do reality-bending things. That is not what it is. That is what full casters are for.

This is fine, and likely true. It also doesn't mean the Fighter cannot be improved.
 


It’s easier to imagine the end of the game than the end of caster supremacy? 😜

The thing is even if we accept the assertion that casters have to be so uber powerful, in and out of combat, this doesn't mean theres no fixes.

DCC goes way harder with its magic users and the system just works, aside from the consequences of Spellburn not often being severe enough to deter novaburns. But that is a dramatically easier problem to solve than trying to balance broken casters with unbroken martials, and far less consequential to the systems health than trying to have martials chase casters up the crappy design tree.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I think so, yeah. This is why there are other games, other versions of D&D, even other versions of 5e.
Making it more powerful or making them more superhuman is not the same as improving it.

I like the class as it is, but there are some things that could be added to improve it:

Here are some changes that I think would actually improve fighters:

At 1st level - Student of Arms:
1. Proficiency in heavy armor as a class ability, not just as a proficiency (this means you would get it on a multiclass into fighter).

2. Advantage on any Intelligence or Wisdom checks involving weapons or armor.

3. Proficiency in one of the following artisans tools: Smith's tools, Woodcarver's tools, Leatherworker's tools or Tinker's tools. Proficiency bonus is doubled when crafting or repairing weapons or armor.

At 3rd level - Weapons Expert:
1. Proficiency in ALL weapons except natural weapons and can figure out how any weapon works by studying it for an hour. By all weapons I mean anything that is functionally a weapon (including improvised weapons) - Catapults, Ballistae, Kua-Toa Monitor weapons, Sahagin Spiked nets, Chain Devil's Chain ...... if you find a crashed space ship with a laser gun the fighter has proficiency in it and automatically can figure out how it functions.

Note, although this provides proficiency and knowlege of use it does not enable the fighter to use something that is not phsically compatible with his body type or size, like a Titan's sword for example.

At 5th level - Use Magic Arms
1. Ignores all race, class and alignment restrictions for magic Armor and Weapons (this would include staves normally only available to casters).

2. +5 on all Charisma skill checks and Charisma saves for conflicts with sentient weapons or armor.

At 7th level - Examine Arms:
1. Can use an action to make a Wisdom or Intelligence check (players choice) to determine the damage types, damage dice and damage bonus of the weapon and effects or conditions imposed on a hit by any weapon being held by a creature which he can currently see. DC is 13 with the following modifiers: magic item (+1 to +5 for common through Legendary), +2 if it is not a martial or simple weapon. This is not usable on natural weapons. The first level advantage ability does apply to this check. This only provides the number of dice and type of damage of the weapon itself and effects that it can cause, it does not provide the attack bonus, bonus to damage due to ability scores or other abilities or the DC for saves agaisnt any effects the weapon imposes.

Example of use - Enemy cultist is holding a Dragontooth Dagger, fighter uses this ability. DC is 16 (13+3 for rare magic item). He rolls with advantage and if he passes the check he knows: The dagger does 1d4+1 piercing plus 1d6 acid on a hit and does an additional 1 piercing and 1d6 acid against enemies of the cult of the Dragon.

At 11th level - Martial Prowess:
1. Get rid of the 3rd extra attack (you would get 2 more at 20th level but you would only have 2 attacks until then)

2. Select a 2nd fighting style

I think doing those things would all improve the class to a degree, but I do generally like it as is already.
 
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Adept_Austin

Villager
I've been lurking these forums for a while, and I want you to know that your fighter re-design is one of the worst I've ever seen. It's so bad you've forced me to make an account. Let's break it down.

At 1st level - Student of Arms:
1. Proficiency in heavy armor as a class ability, not just as a proficiency (this means you would get it on a multiclass into fighter).

2. Advantage on any Intelligence or Wisdom checks involving weapons or armor.

3. Proficiency in one of the following artisans tools: Smith's tools, Woodcarver's tools, Leatherworker's tools or Tinker's tools. Proficiency bonus is doubled when crafting or repairing weapons or armor.
1. Fighter doesn't need anymore reason to be multiclass dipped. Allowing a wizard to gain heavy armor proficiency by dipping fighter doesn't make imporver fighters, it improves wizards.

2. This one's fine, but pretty niche. Definitely not an improvement for the class

3. There are no satisfactory crafting or repairing rules in 5e, so this feature in unsatisfactory by extension

At 3rd level - Weapons Expert:
1. Proficiency in ALL weapons except natural weapons and can figure out how any weapon works by studying it for an hour. By all weapons I mean anything that is functionally a weapon (including improvised weapons) - Catapults, Ballistae, Kua-Toa Monitor weapons, Sahagin Spiked nets, Chain Devil's Chain ...... if you find a crashed space ship with a laser gun the fighter has proficiency in it and automatically can figure out how it functions.

Note, although this provides proficiency and knowlege of use it does not enable the fighter to use something that is not phsically compatible with his body type or size, like a Titan's sword for example.

The fighter is already proficient in all (martial+simple) weapons. The only functional difference would be for alien/future technology which is extremely niche. This feature does basically nothing

At 5th level - Use Magic Arms
1. Ignores all race, class and alignment restrictions for magic Armor and Weapons (this would include staves normally only available to casters).

2. +5 on all Charisma skill checks and Charisma saves for conflicts with sentient weapons or armor.
1. I actually like this one as it fits the fighter's niche as the master of weapons. I'm not so sure how useful it would be since most fighters would already be able to use most any magic item that's designed to be useful for them, but it captures the spirit of the class. This could also be good for multiclassing but, once again, that's helping other classes, not fighter.

2. Once again, extremely niche. Only charisma checks and saves, and only in conflicts with sentient weapons and armor? how many charisma checks do fighters (or anyone for that matter) make while fighting sentient armor or weapons? How many sentient weapons or armor even call for charisma saves?

At 7th level - Examine Arms:
1. Can use an action to make a Wisdom or Intelligence check (players choice) to determine the damage types, damage dice and damage bonus of the weapon and effects or conditions imposed on a hit by any weapon being held by a creature which he can currently see. DC is 13 with the following modifiers: magic item (+1 to +5 for common through Legendary), +2 if it is not a martial or simple weapon. This is not usable on natural weapons. The first level advantage ability does apply to this check. This only provides the number of dice and type of damage of the weapon itself and effects that it can cause, it does not provide the attack bonus, bonus to damage due to ability scores or other abilities or the DC for saves agaisnt any effects the weapon imposes.

Example of use - Enemy cultist is holding a Dragontooth Dagger, fighter uses this ability. DC is 16 (13+3 for rare magic item). He rolls with advantage and if he passes the check he knows: The dagger does 1d4+1 piercing plus 1d6 acid on a hit and does an additional 1 piercing and 1d6 acid against enemies of the cult of the Dragon.

I'm glad there's actually a use for the first level ability now, but honestly they should be reversed and combined into the same ability with the advantage coming later as scaling of the ability. Also, the +2 for weapons that aren't martial or simple would only be for ??? Alien weapons? Siege weapons? I don't really see the need for the added difficulty. Finally, this only works on weapons? What about armor or Magic wands? While not strictly weapons, many do contain combat abilities which would be very thematic for a fighter to know about.

At 11th level - Martial Prowess:
1. Get rid of the 3rd extra attack (you would get 2 more at 20th level but you would only have 2 attacks until then)

2. Select a 2nd fighting style

1. 3rd and 4th extra attacks aren't even features, they're scaling of the fighters 5th level feature and should already be baked into that feature
2. Same thing except worse because instead of getting a rehashed 5th level feature, you're getting a 1st level feature.

Fighters are supposed to be the master of weapons in the D&D world. The reverse side of the coin where Wizards are the master of spells. The problem with the fighter is that its "mastery" just allows it to use the same bog standard attacks more times in a turn. Imagine if the wizard's only scaling to show its mastery was that it could cast fire bolt 4 times instead of once (without the baked in level scaling)
 

Exactly! The minority of people just say it not stepping on my toes to boost the fighter because they are going to be fine with the Superman fighter they want, their feet are not going to be hurt. The fact that it will make the game worse for me and others or "step on our feet" does not matter to them.

The real reason this is such a problem is changing the fighter to make him Superman hurts EVERYONE who wants the fighter to stay where it is, and that includes both people who play fighters and like the current fighter and people who play other classes who want to keep the fighter in a support role. It will step on ALL of our toes, those playing the fighter and those not playing the fighter. The only people it will help (or I should say possibly help) are that small minority of players who want to play a Fighter with a large, leading role, and Superman powers. Those people want that but refuse to pick a class more suited to that style of play.

I have offered reasons why it should not change, both thematic reasons and personality-driven reasons. I have offered anecdotes showing how the current class works those are just dismissed out of hand because they are not "proof", while the opposing side offers no proof of their own. I've endorsed compromise solutions, like another class, but that is not good enough. The people who want to "fix" the fighter are only interested in fixes that hurt a large portion of the gaming population and "step on their feet".
You can keep your version of the fighter while those of us who prefer equitable play can have a version that is equitable and you can ban it from your games the same way I banned Dragonmarks in my games.


I haven't seen anyone that wants a Mythic Martial at higher levels that wouldn't be satisfied with an entirely new class called something else AND keeping the existing Fighter as is? No one I've seen is taking that line in the sand? In fact, I think it's preferable to most mythic martial supporters at this point to have a separate class.

The new class can't be a compromise class, however. You know, a new class built by people who don't see the reason for a new class and want to hamper it by starting with the Fighter as a balanced base instead of the Wizard, limiting the mechanics that can be used, etc. I see a lot of push back on this.

So are you saying you will be ok with a new Mythic Martial class that is no more powerful and versatile than the Wizard existing in D&D, as long as the current Fighter is also available?

If you are, then no problem. Both sides can be happy.

If you are saying that even if the existing Fighter is available, this new class will step on your toes and hurt a large portion of the gaming population (which some people have said in these threads), then I call hooey.

Ban it from your game for preference reasons and your table goes on like it always has.

In situations where it is not banned then 1 of 3 things will happen:

1) some people will play the Fighter or the Mythic Martial depending on preference . great more options and more people happy

2) the majority of people will play the Mythic Martial instead of the Fighter because the Fighter really was underpowered, Mythic Martial is a preferred aesthetic, or a combination of both. great, we found out this is what most people wanted all along

3) no one plays the Mythic Martial. Not so great, as we wasted some resources. but certainly doesn't hurt or step on anyone's feet.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I haven't seen anyone that wants a Mythic Martial at higher levels that wouldn't be satisfied with an entirely new class called something else AND keeping the existing Fighter as is?

It is all over this very thread. Here is a post from a few pages ago:

The important thing is that people who want an improved fighter can't say two words without being shouted down and bogged down in pointless minutia designed to stymie actual discussion of the subject.

Not another class, an improved fighter!

If you are talking about a different new class fine, but many people (most people?) want to screw up the fighter specifically.
 

It is all over this very thread. Here is a post from a few pages ago:

The important thing is that people who want an improved fighter can't say two words without being shouted down and bogged down in pointless minutia designed to stymie actual discussion of the subject.

Not another class, an improved fighter!

If you are talking about a different new class fine, but many people (most people?) want to screw up the fighter specifically.

I think us Mythic Martial fans should be clearer on this. I try to always talk about a new Mythic Martial class to make this clear, but probably sometimes slip.

Many people use fighter as stand in for "non spellcasting martial hero that has primarily a physical mode of power which could or could not be a new class", Which I agree is confusing.

But I still don't see many/most people saying the current Fighter class absolutely must go. Especially from the Mythic Martial people. Myself, Micah, Insenjucar, and many others liking those posts have all said keep the Fighter explicitly.

You can keep your version of the fighter while those of us who prefer equitable play can have a version that is equitable and you can ban it from your games the same way I banned Dragonmarks in my games.

There are also "marginally improve the Fighter" people that get mixed in which may have different views.

I said in another one of these threads that its like we all have to list our assumptions/framing at the top of each post so we know what frame the person is coming from. Otherwise we are just talking past each other.

My assumptions when I talk about the Mythic Martial class:

  • Spellcasters will remain the same
  • Leave the Fighter as is for those that want it
  • Create a new Mythic Martial class in a optional splatbook that is no more versatile and powerful than the Wizard and allowed to be designed by fans of the archetype without catering to people who don't want it or won't play it.

If we are nerfing casters then maybe I don't need Hulk in the game and I'd have a different view. But that is a whole different conversation...
 

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
It is all over this very thread. Here is a post from a few pages ago:

The important thing is that people who want an improved fighter can't say two words without being shouted down and bogged down in pointless minutia designed to stymie actual discussion of the subject.

Not another class, an improved fighter!

If you are talking about a different new class fine, but many people (most people?) want to screw up the fighter specifically.
But a fighter that is properly balanced against the wizard is pretty much improved by definition. It's impossible to make a fighter-similar class that is as powerful as a wizard that is not more powerful than the fighter.
 

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