D&D 5E RE: Tarasque vs. 5th lv. Wizard scenario - how does Wizard know to use Acid Splash?!?

[Eric V]

Throwing rocks isn't sufficient. It has to be able to throw rocks at ranges up to 400' at the minimum, which BTW is something that PCs can't do and for which the Improvised Weapons rules won't help.

I actually think the poster above who mentioned that the Tarrasque lacks the requisite INT to use tools (which throwing rocks with any accuracy definitely falls under) stops this tactical path cold. It's a great point.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Low intel monsters with High CR are meant to be beaten with guess what intelligence, so i really do not understand the issue, if figured out ligimitally in game, with it being beaten as described.

yup some of my favorite stories are ones where a PC hit WAY out of his league and killed something with a smart move... my problem is it isn't "intelligence" it's "Use a very basic strategy"

The only real thing here that anyone's put forward as a valid point of view is that they've had allot of characters Meta game the out of this encounter and allot of people have just played it out as written and watched their big bad monster die to said Meta game, how the hell did that have anything to do with any other than them?

I don't think there is anything metagaming about it... IF I made a complete refluff of the monster, but it was still animal intellect, had no ranged attack, and was a supposed to be a threat in the open, then my party would most likely still pepper it with ranged attacks...if not to kill it (although they might) at least to weaken it.

I'm not even talking about a 5th level wizard spaming a cantrip... I mean a full on hit hard with lots of stuff but from X feet away where X is greater then it's move+ reach and/or throw distance....

Also your point about having to design a how encounter around it, are you for real? Its literally a mythological creature of legend and the second or highest CR in the whole of 5th edition, if your telling me it doesnt deserve a moments thought and effort to make it pretty epic then remind me to not show up at your table any time soon. (tongue and cheek intended opposed to genuine insult)

It does require some thought... and the fact that it requires more to counter a massive whole is annoying...especially when said whole was smaller or non issue in other editions.

How exactly is this thing encountered any way? Just stood in some of massive cavern with no exits? Just shrink the ceiling? Have him cave it in on top of everyone as hes dieing, possibly trapping the flying wizard? Is there no other more remotely intelligent bad guys around getting involved in this, perhaps if you expect your party of Meta gaming vustly, just have the BBEG thats not got 3 intelligence do the same, and meta game the hell out of them back?

past uses in my game of Big T

2e, I had one wake up in the middle of my party (at the time just having hit 17th level) sleeping in an inn, and it attacked the city (1st time I ever used)
2e, I had a BBEG force port them to flax... then ran no less then 7 encounters... only 1 of witch was a full fight instead of trying to outsmart/get away.
3.0, party just hit 5th level I had one wake up in the far south and rampage through mostly empty woods falling back to sleep within sight of the southern boarder of the kingdom the PCs knew... The PCs where shortly there after told that in 14 months it would wake up for it's longest rampage yet, and destroy the kingdom. This was added to 3 other things going on at same time.
3.0 same party at level 14 had to fight and slay that tarrasque but with the yearish to prep first.
3.0 in a game where the PCs where all demi humans (divine rank 0) I used them when ever one of the big gods got pissed... I think the party fought 4 or 5 over a 10 level spread from level 5-15.
3.5 had one sleeping in a kobold cave that my party had to clean out to claim some land... it wasn't due to wake up for over a decade. (Kobolds worshiped the sleeping dragon god)
3.5 used stats scaled down to medium for my "Armageddon Beast" that used my Doomsday mini
4e had a 1 off game with 9 players where they hunted and killed it at gen con
homebrew mish mash system had one slain and pieces pulled off and magicaly bound to soldiers making them unkillable.(with out a wish spell) then invaded the PCs country...

wow... so 9 times over almost 20 years... I guess I have used it a lot.

 

[billd91]

I actually think the poster above who mentioned that the Tarrasque lacks the requisite INT to use tools (which throwing rocks with any accuracy definitely falls under) stops this tactical path cold. It's a great point.

Not really. Do all PCs with an intelligence of 3 get disqualified from using weapons and armor? I don't think so.

 

[Eric V]

Not really. Do all PCs with an intelligence of 3 get disqualified from using weapons and armor? I don't think so.

Have there been PCs with 3 Int? If there have, could they even put their armor on themselves?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

After re reading your post to answer your personal major concern, its difference to other editions, i would suggest this is by far not the only monster to be changed in such a manner and is in slight a hand over from both 3.5 and more so 4th where this happened to allot of monsters, ALLOT and i just don't get what your trying to say about the fluff. The fluff is more attached to the creatures legend, are you suggesting even with its 5th edition stats it hasnt gone round leveling entire civilizations that didn't happen to have a wizard? Even from 1st to 2nd their was a huge shift in monster design away from having by standard unbeatable monsters, by 3.5 even gods had achievable stats. Is this an issue? Sure. Ironically tho its an issue caused by them working towards what your asking for in my personal opinion, simple fights based souly of stat blocks, to be fair i guess its not that much of you to ask if their to adopt that strategy to put perhaps more than minimal effort in but i really don't think its required, at the end of the day if the wizzard called it like the above no one else in the party is even getting any exp, i doubt the thing has treasure, so really at the end of the day what is the problem? Either buff it up to meet the legend because your worlds full of lvl 6+ wizzards or just dont let the whole module hinge on this one encounter for its excitement facter?

Are you suggesting that there are entire civilizations that don't have a single wizard/priest/magical weapon? And you think these civilizations are common enough that all the civilizations the Tarrasque has ever gone up against are of this type? In fact, judging by AD&D discussions, many DMs would probably not let the "immunity to non-magical weapons" shrug off attacks from siege weapons either, any more than they would let it shrug off falling damage, in which case it has to go up against civilizations with neither magic nor technology... which means the only destroyed civilizations in the Tarrasque legend have to be inconsequential little tribes of herdsmen on the savannah.

Imagine your BBEG saying: "You are too late to stop me--the ritual is complete! Behold the legendary Tarrasque! It destroyed the Goatmen of Botswanaga and the Village of Pompedore (while carefully avoiding the mighty Nethgul Empire which would have casually destroyed it). Now it will destroy you!" That's not exactly impressive. The PCs would probably be more impressed by a herd of 30 Ogres, which have 3x the hit points and do 3x the damage, including a ranged attack. (Edit: actually, by the encounter building rules, it would need to be a whole tribe of 90 Ogres to be officially as "difficult" as the Tarrasque.)

 

[Fanaelialae]

Have there been PCs with 3 Int? If there have, could they even put their armor on themselves?

Yes and yes. See my post earlier in this thread about my 3 Int character, Rok.

Imagine your BBEG saying: "You are too late to stop me--the ritual is complete! Behold the legendary Tarrasque! It destroyed the Goatmen of Botswanaga and the Village of Pompedore (while carefully avoiding the mighty Nethgul Empire which would have casually destroyed it). Now it will destroy you!" That's not exactly impressive. The PCs would probably be more impressed by a herd of 30 Ogres, which have 3x the hit points and do 3x the damage, including a ranged attack. (Edit: actually, by the encounter building rules, it would need to be a whole tribe of 90 Ogres to be officially as "difficult" as the Tarrasque.)

In fairness, a Meteor Swarm spell would wipe out that horde of ogres easily, but wouldn't do much to the Tarrasque.

 

[Eric V]

Yes and yes. See my post earlier in this thread about my 3 Int character, Rok.

Well, if that worked at your table and you all had fun, great!

Looking at it in terms of game statistics, the scores go from 1 to 30. We know a lot today about tool use in the animal world and in our evolutionary ancestors, and, using comparisons to those creatures, a creature with an INT that close to the minimum for survival wouldn't be smart enough to use tools.

With no disrespect intended, your 3 Int PC being capable of doing most things the other PCs could probably has more to do with his being a PC rather than a scientifically correct (for lack of a better term) exhibition of a 3 Int creature.

 

[Elderbrain]

INT 3 is as smart as an elephant, which is not a stupid animal. We're not discussing a creature with insect intelligence! Just because apes have an INT of 6 and throw rocks, is not evidence that a minimum score of 6 is necessary for a creature to throw rocks... And why does the Tarasque need to throw the rock 400 feet, when the Wizard has to remain in 60-ft. range to use Acid Splash?!? Even using the improvised weapon ranges in the PH, it could reach... and those ranges assume Small and Medium characters, not larger creatures. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that a Gargantuan creature throwing a rock would at least equal the range a smaller monster like a giant could reach, and with a 30 TSR be able to heave any rock a giant could. This ain't rocket science, folks, just the application of a little common sense to a question (How far could the Tarasque throw a rock?) Why is applying a little thought such a forbidden notion? Could it be that when we do... the problem GOES AWAY and then there's nothing to whine about?

 

[sidonunspa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_SnX3xYzgs

Elephant Throws Mud At Tourist... because the tourist offered it false food..

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well, if that worked at your table and you all had fun, great!

Looking at it in terms of game statistics, the scores go from 1 to 30. We know a lot today about tool use in the animal world and in our evolutionary ancestors, and, using comparisons to those creatures, a creature with an INT that close to the minimum for survival wouldn't be smart enough to use tools.

With no disrespect intended, your 3 Int PC being capable of doing most things the other PCs could probably has more to do with his being a PC rather than a scientifically correct (for lack of a better term) exhibition of a 3 Int creature.

I believe you are mistaken. While a 3 Int is certainly at the bottom end of human intelligence, I believe that D&D has always defined it as having the potential for tool usage.

For example, in the PHB 3.0e (arguably the most sim version of D&D), pg 9, it states:

Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Creatures of human-like intelligence have scores of at least 3.

Even disregarding that, every edition including 5e allows for the generation of ability scores using dice, the outcome of which normally ranges from 3 to 18. It's illogical to assume that, given that the designers allow a human to have a 3 stat, that that would render the character unplayable. After all, if a human fighter with a 3 Int is possible but can't wear armor or use a sword, how is he even a fighter? Granted, depending on the edition he might be barred from being a wizard, but I cannot recall ever seeing an Int prerequisite for playing an ordinary fighter.