D&D 5E Plate Mail and hobgoblins

[Jefe Bergenstein]

My question is still relevant, though. How did the Hobgoblin warlord come by the armor? If it's that big a deal for the PCs (the story is the treasure), it should also be for the hobgoblin. What is the story?

The hobgoblin smiths made it. Why are people acting like they are some kind of sub-human crap race. Historically, hobgoblins have been superior to humans in almost every way. In AD&D their base grunt was 1+1HD. In this edition they pack the fighting prowess of a 3rd level rogue. They are disciplined, as smart as the other races, and their society is organized around making war. Frankly I find it more believable they'd have plate over a human.

If you don't want them to have plate, just bump the AC of the hobgoblin because of reasons. This isn't pathfinder 3.5 where some some rules lawyer with a spreadsheet will slap your hand for doing it wrong. But its not a big deal to have plate by that level (what, it raises their AC by 1 probably?) Keep them as dirt farmers until level 20 if you like.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Those are the quick guidelines. Read the full guidelines for AC. I think it's the first or second paragraph on page 276, but I'm AFB so can't check page numbers. Top of the left-side page anyway.

Those are also pretty poor guidelines. 1 CR is a huge bump for 2 measly points of AC and no more HP, damage, etc. I feel tight monster design is an area where 5E is significantly inferior to 4E. Look at the Ogre, Eye of Gruumsh, Cult Fanatic and Druid. All CR 2, nowhere near each other in threat.

 

[Warbringer]

276: "alternatively, you can determine an appropriate AC based on the type of armor the monster wears, its natural armor, or some other AC booster (such as the Mage Armor spell). Again, don't worry if the monster's AC isn't matching up with the expected challenge rating for the monster."

That's why hobgoblins are CR 1/4 instead of CR 1, as they would be by the quick rules on 274.

Hobgoblins are CR 1/2

Now under the DMG table that's (AC13, HPs 50-70, Att +3, Dam 6-8, Prof +2, Saves 13). If you contest that adding plate to that matrix (AC 20) has no material impact on the outcome, I'll argue all day long in play that will not be the case.

To be honest, the MM Hobgoblin at CR 1/2 seems weak by comparison and probably should only be a a CR 1/4.

Any boby using the DMG to create monsters on the fly? Are they "grindy"?

 

[Warbringer]

I feel tight monster design is an area where 5E is significantly inferior to 4E.

Completely agree

 

[jgsugden]

Your analysis has a few flaws
Comparing Plate to Splint +1 is as nonsensical as comparing Studded Leather armor to Leather +1. Should Studded Leather be as rare and hard to get at Leather +1? What about Padded +2?
The reality is, in just about every DnD edition, magical armor makes little sense except for the best versions. (Chainmail +1.... why?)

Yes, the armor rules do not always make sense. However, the parts where they make the most sense tend to be at the points that are really relevant - the points that PCs will gravitate towards - the points where the best AC can be achieved for a particular build.

Leather +1 and studded share a lot in common, but they fail to have some key things in common that platemail and splint +1 do: They're at the top end of the armor spectrum and they've expensive. However, as you note, leather +1 is - in almost all circumstances - effectively equivalent to studded leather (although I would tend to argue studded is actually better than leather +1 more often than the reverse). It is a pretty bad treasure haul.

Regardless, the similarities between leather +1 and studded leather are not relevant here because they did not take steps to make both studded leather and leather +1 hard to acquire and they do not exist near the top of the armor range.

And at least Chainmail +1 makes some sense for a 13 or 14 strength character....

Before we start to throw in the 'but a high dex character gets almost as much out of studded leather as platemail offers' argument, a high dex character is benefitting from more resource allocation than just a suit of armor to get that AC. They generally have a high dexterity at the opportunity cost of having a high 'other' ability score. They're paying for it, just in a way other than just armor.

Second, even only counting Hoard treasure, you should have enough for Plate before 6th level. I had it at 4th level because the party chipped in. (Since not much else to spend it on.)

If you follow the guidelines for treasure hoards you should collect about 375 gp worth of money, gems and art objects per hoard. With 7 hoards, you get ~ 2600 GP TOTAL for the party by the you hit 5th. Some of that should go to cost of living, upgrading other initial equipment, etc... If an entire party devotes the vast majority of their resources to getting one member plate mail - yes, in a typical party you should be able to get there around 5th level... but that is not expected behavior in the game. Following the expected guidelines and a typical division of resources amongst a party, the typical/expected zone where platemail should be acquired is more likely to be where I stated.

 

[Saeviomagy]

"So, sir, how is it that you come to be wearing hobgoblin platemail?"

"I killed their leader, remember? I handed in his head and collected the bounty? Saved the city?"

I mean sure, there are going to be certain situations that wearing Hobgoblin plate is not likely to be the way to go... but most of those are because you probably shouldn't be wearing armour at all, rather than what horrible monsters you've killed in your profession as an adventurer...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Those are also pretty poor guidelines. 1 CR is a huge bump for 2 measly points of AC and no more HP, damage, etc. I feel tight monster design is an area where 5E is significantly inferior to 4E. Look at the Ogre, Eye of Gruumsh, Cult Fanatic and Druid. All CR 2, nowhere near each other in threat.

Another example: officially, you evaluate CR of spellcasting monsters on a DPR basis for the spells, but then swapping out spells has no effect on CR. (Why? It makes no sense!) Variant dragons with spells are far more dangerous than non-spellcasting dragons bit have the exact same CR.

Monster design is indeed pretty bad in 5E. That, and magic item rarity, are the two biggest issues I have with 5E. Fortunately you can still convert AD&D monsters forward.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Hobgoblins make perfectly serviceable arms and armor. It is in hobgoblin style, however, which may not be to the characters' tastes.

Unlike the typical junk your average orcs and goblins carry, I'd encourage my players to take the armor from the looted hobgoblins. Use or sell as preferred.

Since you can generally sell human-made arms and armor for half the purchase price, I'd let them sell hobgoblin equipment for about 1/4 to 1/3 of the purchase price--the assumption being that the merchant might have a harder time finding a buyer willing to pay full price for it (or...he might be able to get *more* from a collector, but he isn't going to tell *you* that).

 

[Rune]

The hobgoblin smiths made it. Why are people acting like they are some kind of sub-human crap race. Historically, hobgoblins have been superior to humans in almost every way.

I think you misread my post. I certainly never implied that hobgoblins are inferior, nor that they are incapable of producing intricate armor. I was asking what events led to the hobgoblin being able to afford the very valuable hobgoblin-crafted platemail in a world where a roughly equivalent level party is expected not to be able to afford or aquire platemail. I'm not saying it shouldn't be so. I just want to know why.

 

[Athinar]

Refitting takes 250 Days and 250 Gold; non-repaired(fitted) armor has a penalty of -1 to total AC for the poor fit of the armor and has a 25% per day of getting some kind of a disease, all fixable by a Smith and Leather Worker