D&D 5E Plate Mail and hobgoblins

[Tormyr]

Another example: officially, you evaluate CR of spellcasting monsters on a DPR basis for the spells, but then swapping out spells has no effect on CR. (Why? It makes no sense!) Variant dragons with spells are far more dangerous than non-spellcasting dragons bit have the exact same CR.

Monster design is indeed pretty bad in 5E. That, and magic item rarity, are the two biggest issues I have with 5E. Fortunately you can still convert AD&D monsters forward.

Actually, the rules specify that swapping spells can change CR (page 5-6 of the basic DMG). Specifically, the monster has to use its most efficient damage dealing mechanism for three rounds to determine base DPR. An adult red dragon for example already has potent damage dealing capabilities. Each attack is calculated as if it hits, and each spell with a save DC for half damage are calculated using the area of effect rules in the DMG and as if all the targets made their save (what I have found from reverse engineering dragons and spellcasters). So for the adult red dragon, each round it gets 51 damage from legendary actions, after that it gets:
Round 1: Frightful Presence (needed for the bump to effective AC) + 49 damage
Round 2: Flame breath (60 foot cone = 6 people * 1/2 damage) 189 damage
Round 3: 49 damage
So the average effective DPR is 147 damage.

I don't have my books with me, but I seem to remember that dragons only get spell slots up to 1/3 their CR or something like that. Keeping with a fire theme, there is flame strike at 5th level, but it only does 28 average damage. Fireball at 3rd level is the easiest to calculate, and I am pretty sure off the top of my head that an adult red dragon would have access to it. It does 56 average damage (4 in area of effect 28 damage each, save for 1/2 damage). That is only slightly higher than the round 3 damage as it is. That would only move the average damage to 98, so not much of a difference.

Other dragons would potentially have a stronger effect. A white dragon with cone of cold to supplement its breath weapon would use 108 damage (from memory) for a round. This could potentially bump the offensive CR a step or 2, but any increase is still halved because it is averaged with the defensive CR. A concentration buff spell could boost the defensive CR and help with that overall increase in CR. The dragon's legendary resistance could also help ensure that the buff stays up longer.

All in all, I think dragons function better if the bulk of their spells are utility in nature (such as alarm to guard a passageway, but that's just me.

 

[Tormyr]

This isn't pathfinder 3.5 where some some rules lawyer with a spreadsheet will slap your hand for doing it wrong. But its not a big deal to have plate by that level (what, it raises their AC by 1 probably?) Keep them as dirt farmers until level 20 if you like.

I agree. If you want his AC bumped without giving the PCs goodies, give him a potion of shield of faith, bump his AC by 2, and call it good.

 

[Tormyr]

Hobgoblins are CR 1/2

Now under the DMG table that's (AC13, HPs 50-70, Att +3, Dam 6-8, Prof +2, Saves 13). If you contest that adding plate to that matrix (AC 20) has no material impact on the outcome, I'll argue all day long in play that will not be the case.

To be honest, the MM Hobgoblin at CR 1/2 seems weak by comparison and probably should only be a a CR 1/4.

Any boby using the DMG to create monsters on the fly? Are they "grindy"?

The hobgoblin would be CR1/4 if not for the extra 7 damage from its Martial Advantage trait. With that, it can kill a PC wizard of hp 6 outright using its average damage.

I set up a couple white room tests using the CR table and 4 pregens from the starter set. In the various cases, the PCs used a few resources (1 healing word from the cleric and a magic missile from the wizard in 1 run through that comes to mind), the battles were still over in about three rounds, and no PCs stayed down. I had only tested medium encounters in that run through, but 3 rounds didn't feel any more "grindy" than monsters with higher AC and lower hp. It was actually surprising to see how quickly the generic monsters went down versus the level 1 PCs.

The CR system is surprisingly flexible. I have had to convert a ton of monsters from the 3.5 Age of Worms AP, and each time I have been able to match the CR of the 3.5 monster without much difficulty. Spellcasters are a bit harder. They generally have higher level spell slots available than in 3.5. It helps that I have a spreadsheet (which is posted to the resources section of EN World) that takes all of the various calculations into account on the fly.

 

[Prism]

I think you misread my post. I certainly never implied that hobgoblins are inferior, nor that they are incapable of producing intricate armor. I was asking what events led to the hobgoblin being able to afford the very valuable hobgoblin-crafted platemail in a world where a roughly equivalent level party is expected not to be able to afford or aquire platemail. I'm not saying it shouldn't be so. I just want to know why.

The hobgoblin warlord alone is a much higher level character equivalent. In hit dice and number of attacks he is 13th level so there is no real surprise in having the plate mail I would say. I think he is the toughest melee humanoid in the monster manual. The roughly equivalent party level could actually afford plate mail but they typically split the cash.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think you misread my post. I certainly never implied that hobgoblins are inferior, nor that they are incapable of producing intricate armor. I was asking what events led to the hobgoblin being able to afford the very valuable hobgoblin-crafted platemail in a world where a roughly equivalent level party is expected not to be able to afford or aquire platemail. I'm not saying it shouldn't be so. I just want to know why.

IIRC they have like 10 hit dice, so its essentially like a 10th level human fighter having plate mail.

Brigmak Irontooth got his start fighting a few dire rats in the hobgoblin sewers. While celebrating in a tavern and eyeing the cans on the orc barmaid, an old bugbear wizard told him about a mine nearby rumored to have a vile gnome infestation. The burly mage offered a bounty as well - If Brigmak brought him 10 gnome noses he'd get 100 crud pieces and Dwarfsquisher, a magical maul.

So Brigmak gathered together a party - Pik'n Flik the goblin rogue, Skeeps the kobold sorcerer, Clerorc the orcish Eye of Gruumsh and Turtlehead the lizardman druid. They young adventuring party ventured forth into the mines, overcoming the gnomes vicious traps, irritating illusions, badger guardians and pointy hats until they reached the gnomish chieftan and his halfling harem. It was a mighty battle against the monsters, but eventually the heroes prevailed. Sadly Pik'n Flik was slain in the final battle by the gnome chieftan's weird 1st edition polearm - a spagglespork I think... d5+2 vs small or medium, 1d4+1d7 vs large creatures.

The triumphant party returned, and recruited a new goblin rogue. He was originally all "My name is Bartrox" but the party liked Pik'n Flik better so beat mercilessly until he changed his name. Everyone laughed and laughed, and lit a farm on fire to celebrate!

They had many adventures through the years, including quelling a slave rebellion in the mines and stopping some insane cultists from summoning an angel. Also at some point he bought some platemail.

 

[Blue]

Refitting takes 250 Days and 250 Gold; non-repaired(fitted) armor has a penalty of -1 to total AC for the poor fit of the armor and has a 25% per day of getting some kind of a disease, all fixable by a Smith and Leather Worker

Why? Just really - what part of the game or story is made more fun for DM or players by "I'll dangle this in front of you and pretend to even let you have it, but the amount of time it will take to rework means you'll be levels past this and either bought normal plate mail 'off the rack' without this time delay or found magic armor already.

Does that increase in verisimilitude make your players happy? Does this make the game better in ANY POSSIBLE WAY?

If you don't want to give it to them, then don't. If you want to have it count as some of their treasure or the reverse drain some of their treasure because of the GP value - go ahead. All of those make sense.

But 250 days makes it meaningless for the majority of campaigns.

 

[Savage Wombat]

The hobgoblin warlord alone is a much higher level character equivalent. In hit dice and number of attacks he is 13th level so there is no real surprise in having the plate mail I would say. I think he is the toughest melee humanoid in the monster manual. The roughly equivalent party level could actually afford plate mail but they typically split the cash.

When I was using the hobs in my game, I read the description and decided that, from the tone, a hobgoblin warlord is much less "Biggob the tribe leader" and more "Genghis Khan". So really nice gear would be expected.

 

[Tormyr]

Why? Just really - what part of the game or story is made more fun for DM or players by "I'll dangle this in front of you and pretend to even let you have it, but the amount of time it will take to rework means you'll be levels past this and either bought normal plate mail 'off the rack' without this time delay or found magic armor already.

Does that increase in verisimilitude make your players happy? Does this make the game better in ANY POSSIBLE WAY?

If you don't want to give it to them, then don't. If you want to have it count as some of their treasure or the reverse drain some of their treasure because of the GP value - go ahead. All of those make sense.

But 250 days makes it meaningless for the majority of campaigns.

A solution may be to throw more black smiths at it. 2 black smiths could do it in 125 days, but multiply the original cost by 2 for 500 gp. 3 smiths (a larger black smith shop in a city) could do it in a 83 days and 750 gp. 250 days is kind of high anyway. I always assumed it meant that the black smith was able to keep up with their other work or that the work was thrown on the end of their backlog. The PCs could always pay an exorbitant rush fee to jump the queue.

In my campaign, the PCs at level 1 found a table made of a red metal unseen before on their world. They decided to take the table of "shiny, red, space metal" to the local blacksmith, who was known far and wide for his exceptional work. He was ecstatic at the opportunity to work with the metal and dumped the rest of his backlog to put them at the front. I also on the fly gave him access to the fabricate spell so that the work would be done quickly. We are playing an AP, so at the end of chapter 1, simple items had been completed. At the end of chapter two, everything except the two sets of plate were completed. At the end of chapter 3, the 2 sets of plate were completed. The smith also commented that while the metal was very strong, it was very easy to shape once heated. So the items created were early +1 gifts, but there is a vulnerability/weakness to fire intrinsic to it (think heat metal kind of stuff. The AP is magic item heavy anyway, so I was only giving them stuff a little bit early, and the campaign has not suffered as a result of the +1 items.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Why? Just really - what part of the game or story is made more fun for DM or players by "I'll dangle this in front of you and pretend to even let you have it, but the amount of time it will take to rework means you'll be levels past this and either bought normal plate mail 'off the rack' without this time delay or found magic armor already.

Does that increase in verisimilitude make your players happy? Does this make the game better in ANY POSSIBLE WAY?

If you don't want to give it to them, then don't. If you want to have it count as some of their treasure or the reverse drain some of their treasure because of the GP value - go ahead. All of those make sense.

But 250 days makes it meaningless for the majority of campaigns.

I want to know what kind of ass draggin smith takes almost a year to refit armor. That's some shady contractor right there. You need to swing by Castle Depot on a Saturday morning - there's bound of be some guys outside looking for work who can do it in a quarter of the time.

Also 25% chance per day to catch a disease from wearing poorly fitted armor? Even my v-tude strains at that!

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Why are we fighting page 144 of the PHB if you want more realism (or to be less generous)?

If need be the character pays 10-40% of the cost to resize the armour, 150-600gp. These gold values are nothing to sniff at at lower level.