D&D 5E Where does the punitive approach to pc death come from?

[transtemporal]

I can't answer for any other DM, only for what it could be done at my table.

I probably have missed the point, and for that I am sorry and ask you a question: what is bothering you (or the player of the said Paladin, if it wasn't you)? That the PC was a concept dear to you, and that you would have had the chance to explore it more deeply? That the PC was dear to the party, and so his loss would be felt, because of strategic assets, or maybe roleplay? Did you (or his player) became strongly attached to him?

Fair question. Actually the entire thread came about because my fighter died recently, so I could either have my character raised or I could make a new character at the lowest level in the group or average level -1, whichever is higher. Same as we've always done.

This has been our groups policy for creating new characters in an established group for 10ish years now. Thing is, since I was DM in our first campaign (and for most of the campaigns since) and I essentially established the policy, I never really thought about whether it was fair or not.

Now putting aside the stuff about the paladin and a 1st level pc in a 20th level group etc etc, it was mostly to see what groups do in their campaigns and the reasoning behind it. In retrospect, I probably could've called the thread "What is your groups new character policy?" lol. Next time.

 

[Shayuri]

Hehe. Most groups I've played with either do 'same level as everyone else' or 'level -1.'

Same level is most common.

I think the 'level -1' approach is often meant to discourage players from leapfrogging. That is, deciding they don't want THIS character anymore, and want to try something -completely different.- Well, excessive leapfrogging can mess a game up, so some GMs have a policy where you 'lose' a level to discourage it.

That said, it isn't commplace in the groups I've gamed with. If things like character-switching becomes an issue, they deal with it directly in discussion rather than institute some overarching rule to try to make it less of an option.

Perhaps I've been lucky that way.

 

[Kikuras]

Now putting aside the stuff about the paladin and a 1st level pc in a 20th level group etc etc, it was mostly to see what groups do in their campaigns and the reasoning behind it. In retrospect, I probably could've called the thread "What is your groups new character policy?" lol. Next time.

My group instituted the 'average level -1' for the reason described by Shayuri. We had a couple of players who wanted to 'try' stuff, and then would end up with characters they didn't like, and it became an issue. The other reason we did it was because we felt the core of the remaining party shouldn't be challenged by the arrival of a new character who was just as powerful as them, and then that character being gone three sessions later because the player didn't like it (Of course it might be cool to throw the PCs a twist and arrange it so that they might end up joining the individual's adventuring enterprise instead, giving him a stronger role). Anyway, we were all comfortable with the system. A single level tends to be less of an issue at higher levels.

 

[Endur]

1st level and higher levels were closer together in AD&D than they are in more recent versions.

If half of the party was 1st level, it was not a big deal to restart at 1st level if your 2nd level or 3rd level veteran character died.

Yes, there were times when my low level character was the guy in the back holding the torch so that the party could see.

 

[Endur]

I don't recall any game involving killing rats in someone's basement. Doesn't that mostly occur in cRPGs? And even then, doesn't it mostly occur as either a humorous lamp shade of the trope or a deadly inversion of it? Planescape:Torment has a 'kill the rats' quest, but Many-as-One is hardly your typical rats in a basement.

I checked on TVTropes and they assert that this happens in PnP Dungeons & Dragons, but tellingly (to my mind) and uncharacteristically they provide no actual examples.

Only rats I remember at 1st level are computer games.

Having said, that both the basic D&D adventure (1980 boxed set) and B2 keep on the borderlands included giant rats as enemies (although giant rats weren't on the list of random encounters). In B2, giant rats were an early encounter in the kobold cave, so it could be a very early encounter, if the PCs avoided overland encounters and correctly entered the kobold cave first.

 

[Celebrim]

1st level and higher levels were closer together in AD&D than they are in more recent versions.

The big advantage of the 1e XP system is that if you restarted at 1st level, by the time the rest of the group went from level X to level X+1 (assuming you were treated as a full party member and the DM didn't stick you too hard with the never quite generic training time/costs), you would have gone back to level X and now be essentially just a level behind where you would have been.

As for rats showing up as low level encounters, rats are acceptable as low level encounters if encountered in the context of performing some otherwise heroic task. Many people after all are afraid of rats, rats have a certain mythic resonance, and a swarm of rats has a lot of visual appeal as a foe (especially if they are all the size of small dogs). I believe that the real complaint against 'killing rats in a basement' is that it's a sort of mundane, non-heroic sort of quest, that we'd expect of a real life exterminator. The rats themselves aren't the problem. You don't need to hire heroes to do that; you could just hire a professional ratter with his terriers, traps and clubs. Killing rats in a basement isn't a good structure to a quest. But killing giant rats in the Temple of the Sewer God beneath the ruined city of Lost Felpar that the swamps have consumed might be, and encountering a swarm of rats as one of a varied sort of encounters in some dungeon certainly is.

Nor for that matter do rats have to be just low level encounters. I tend to not throw rats at low level characters in my homebrew, because seriously, the rats are a civilization not to be taken lightly. A single rat swarm is CR 2. You don't want to get the rats mad at you.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The big advantage of the 1e XP system is that if you restarted at 1st level, by the time the rest of the group went from level X to level X+1 (assuming you were treated as a full party member and the DM didn't stick you too hard with the never quite generic training time/costs), you would have gone back to level X and now be essentially just a level behind where you would have been.

Or if you were following the rules, you could never gain more than one level at a time, and excess experience was lost into the wind until you had a chance to train.

I presume that the complaint against 'killing rats in a basement' is that it's a sort of mundane, non-heroic sort of quest, that we'd expect of a real life exterminator. You don't need to hire heroes to do that; you could just hire a professional ratter with his terriers, traps and clubs.

Of course, a level 1 character wasn't any sort of real hero in those days, either. A professional rat-killer might have better HP/THAC0 than you, even though it was nominally a level-0 NPC.

 

[Celebrim]

Or if you were following the rules, you could never gain more than one level at a time, and excess experience was lost into the wind until you had a chance to train.

Hence, my parenthetical comment regarding training. Although, in practice, if the party was willing to wait for you, even the training wouldn't have gotten in the way. In my experience though, the training rules were predicated on a certain campaign style (mega-dungeon crawl with a rotating cast of players) that just didn't transfer to other campaign styles - wilderness exploration, for example.

Of course, a level 1 character wasn't any sort of real hero in those days, either. A professional rat-killer might have better HP/THAC0 than you, even though it was nominally a level-0 NPC.

I don't relate to this comment. Can you show examples of level zero NPC's who fought as higher level/HD creatures, and had had greater than 1 HD worth of hit points?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I don't relate to this comment. Can you show examples of level zero NPC's who fought as higher level/HD creatures, and had had greater than 1 HD worth of hit points?

I never owned a compendium of NPCs, but the DMG seemed fairly clear on the point that NPCs had stats that were appropriate for who they were, so the village blacksmith might have 3 HD and a THAC0 of 19 with his hammer. I'll check my books for an exact quote, when I get home.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Hence, my parenthetical comment regarding training. Although, in practice, if the party was willing to wait for you, even the training wouldn't have gotten in the way. In my experience though, the training rules were predicated on a certain campaign style (mega-dungeon crawl with a rotating cast of players) that just didn't transfer to other campaign styles - wilderness exploration, for example.

Training was really "wonderful" when the DM was successfully building dramatic tension in the important quest, so we can completely derail the game into a very meta discussion about when the party is going to take a hiatus so some party members can level up.

"No, no. We should wait a bit because my wizard will soon get 5th level spells."
"Uh, wouldn't taking a week off risk the end of the world?"
"Well, I think we have a ways to go in this quest, and so we might as well level up now."
"How do you know that?"
"Thick looking module."
"But we want everyone to level up before facing the BBEG. Not everyone is ready yet?"
"Will the plot give us the time to for two training sessions? So that the laggers can level up before we hit the BBEG?"
"My thief is about to start losing XP if he does not train."
"YOur thief can train --- I guess that can work. You can roll up those level 1 replacement thieves who can take your place in the party with the real thief is away. At least they are good for finding one trap. <smirk>"
"My paladin is worried the world will end. She votes we push on."
"How will the thief find us again after training? Who knows where we will be in a week?!?"
"<sigh> Can we cast Divination so we can ask the DM?"
"<grrrr>We talked about this last week. Yes. Ask the gods. Make it clear we are going to spend half an hour of valuable game time. Every. Single. Week. Until 'the gods' ditch these 'realistik olde skool' training rules."