D&D 5E Legends & Lore - A Retrospective

[pemerton]

Mearls ends the column by noting that the delve format works against the above.

<snip>

Like LMoP, HotDQ and RoT do not use the delve format, and as a result, they can pack a lot of locations and fairly intricate dungeons into their pages. However, HotDQ and RoT, perhaps moreso than LMoP, suffer from the disadvantages of this style -- sometimes they simply don't provide enough information to make DMs' jobs easier.

The delve format is, at least in my view, pretty terrible. It leads to duplication of maps and keys, page flipping, etc.

If the ToD modules lack information, surely there are better ways to provide it than the delve format!

 

[Staffan]

I mean, I'm with you, I'm playing a dwarf warlord right now in a 4e game and plan on transitioning to a 5e game and am seriously looking at the Battle Master as basically what I'd need, and it looks solid, I'm happy with it. And when I hear from people who aren't, a lot of what they seem to be saying is, "it's not complex enough, I need more options, I need more moving parts."

I think you can use the Battle Master fighter to, more or less, make a warlord. It doesn't, however, provide the depth for warlords. If you want to make a warlordy Battle Master you take Commander's Strike, Maneuvering Attack, and Rally, and then you're done. There's no room for being the tactical warlord, or the inspiring warlord, or some other kind of warlord - it's all "I'm the fighter who's kind of warlord-y".

It's a bit of the same problem I encountered when experimenting with using a sorcerer as the basis for a psionic character - the mechanical basis of the class would work well to demonstrate innate powers, and being able to manipulate those powers and trade lower level for higher level slots via sorcery points. However, while the spell list would work well to create a psion by choosing the right powers and reskinning them, it wouldn't have the depth to provide for multiple distinct psions.

 

[Staffan]

The delve format is, at least in my view, pretty terrible. It leads to duplication of maps and keys, page flipping, etc.

If the ToD modules lack information, surely there are better ways to provide it than the delve format!

IMO, the Delve format is good for creating and presenting mechanically interesting encounters in an easy-to-understand format. Essentially, if you're making an encounter that's similar to a WoW dungeon boss, the Delve format is a very good way to present that.

But when you don't have that kind of detailed and active terrain, why bother? Further, using the Delve format encourages the more involved kind of encounter, which isn't always a good thing.

 

[billd91]

IMO, the Delve format is good for creating and presenting mechanically interesting encounters in an easy-to-understand format. Essentially, if you're making an encounter that's similar to a WoW dungeon boss, the Delve format is a very good way to present that.

But when you don't have that kind of detailed and active terrain, why bother? Further, using the Delve format encourages the more involved kind of encounter, which isn't always a good thing.

I found the format a mixed bag. If you could get all of the relevant stat blocks on the 2-page spread, it was convenient for running that encounter. But it tends to put a fairly myopic focus on the encounter and makes it harder to see how it all integrates into the adventure. I could see it still being useful for some sorts of significant encounters or weird, local environments but not dominating an adventure's format anymore.

 

[delericho]

The delve format is, at least in my view, pretty terrible. It leads to duplication of maps and keys, page flipping, etc.

If the ToD modules lack information, surely there are better ways to provide it than the delve format!

This, on both counts.

I do see a scenario where the Delve format is useful, though, and it's a pretty obvious one: it's good for the sort of short, mostly-linear, zero-prep adventures that WotC were running at their Dungeon Delve segments at Gen Con.

So I do think there's a place for a book containing half a dozen short dungeon delves, each suitable for play in a single session, and each presented in this format to allow the DM to pick up and run them without much if any pre-reading.

But for 'normal' adventures, and especially for something like "Tyranny of Dragons", it's a failed experiment.

 

[pemerton]

I do think there's a place for a book containing half a dozen short dungeon delves, each suitable for play in a single session, and each presented in this format to allow the DM to pick up and run them without much if any pre-reading.

I haven't used "Dungeon Delves", but I've heard reasonable things about it.

I have used a few scenarios from Open Grave, which normally have a couple of pages of intro and description, then a page or six of delve. They're not as bad because there's not very much page flipping, because the overall amount of information is not that much. I'm still not sure it's ideal, though. There's enough background/framing info in the non-delve pages that some flipping still tends to happen.

 

[delericho]

I haven't used "Dungeon Delves", but I've heard reasonable things about it.

Yep, that's pretty much what I had in mind.

I have used a few scenarios from Open Grave, which normally have a couple of pages of intro and description, then a page or six of delve. They're not as bad because there's not very much page flipping, because the overall amount of information is not that much. I'm still not sure it's ideal, though.

No, indeed. I don't think that would ever be my preferred mode of play. My suggested use would be as something to run last minute, because a player has suddenly dropped out or whatever, or potentially as a demo game at a con or in-store or similar.

In the Delve Format, I think WotC found a useful tool. Their mistake was in then using it for everything, rather than adding it to their toolbox and using only as appropriate.

 

[neobolts]

I really enjoyed Dungeon Delve, especially if the game goes in an unexpected direction. Has the party latched onto something you didn't plan for? Dungeon Delve was a great book for these situations, bite-size asides that were ready to run. It's a book that will carry forward in my toolkit into 5e.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

When you going to cover the next one? It's about game balance, which is never a boring conversation.

 

[Iosue]

When you going to cover the next one? It's about game balance, which is never a boring conversation.

I'm in the midst of writing that post. Real life has gotten in the way, but to be honest there's a little bit of procrastination. Balance is one of those issues that can take over a thread, so there's a bit of reluctance to actually post the next article...