D&D 5E Melee Combat

[Water Bob]

I've got a question about melee combat in 5E. I absolutely love the Combat Maneuvers that you'll find in the Conan RPG. They're like combat-specific feats that a character can use, but not all of them. You've got to qualify for them by meeting the prereqs. With these maneuvers, combat is lively and amazing.

Patherfinder watered down the flavor way too much, imo, by making maneuvers generic and a simple target number. For me, it's like having one type of roll for all magic spells. You lose the flavor of all those spells to where the player just makes up whatever spell effect he wants, then throws his generic number to see if it was a success.

Does 5th edition have combat maneuvers? A generic number like Pathfinder?

 

[PnPgamer]

Fifth edition players handbook does have grapple and shove (comparable to bull rush and trip of pathfinder), and dungeon master guide expands to disarm, enemy climbing to say a few.

 

[Kobold Stew]

They're there, but they're not for everybody.

The battle master (available at fighter 3) has a wide choice of combat maneuvers, and it makes it really fun to play: you have a good range of choices and can create some cool, memorable scenes. For those who aren't fighters, there's a feat, which gives the option for an occasional splashy shot.

This makes them special, though, and gives flexibility to fighters in combat not available to others (as, many would say, is only right). Still, not everyone likes it.

 

[Water Bob]

That's too bad. There's always so much focus on magic in D&D. And, it's true, sorcery can sure make a combat encounter interesting once things like your retreat is cut off by a well directed web spell, magic missiles start slamming into the party's mage, and lightning bolts arc across the battlefield.

Once I started playing the Conan game, I realized that the same type of excitement could be had with just plain old melee--just depending on what combat maneuvers (instead of spells) were used. One character runs then jumps off the side of a broken tomb wall, coming down hard with a side slicking blow, gaining a bonus to hit if his Use The Battlefield maneuver is successful. The Soldier takes advantage of the Reposte, gaining an extra return attack every time his opponent's attack roll is less than half the Soldier's Parry AC. One combatant uses the Trip to knock his opponent on the ground, but downed fighter uses the Kip-Up or the Roll to either regain his feet or roll to the side of an attack while prone. A warrior is having a hard time penetrating his foe's armor even when a hit is scored, so he drops his sword and jumps on the foe, using Grapple and his dagger to slice the man's throat. A thief uses Dance Aside when his foe rolls half his Dodge AC to gain an extra five feet of movement--just enough to keep his two-weaponed enemy from making a second attack with his off-hand. One fighter rolls his target's Parry AC exactly, and the blades of the two are locked in a shoving match using the Lock Weapons maneuver.

Combat with the Conan RPG is so amazing with these touches (and there are many, many more).

Someone should write a 5th Edition Supplement with the Conan RPG as a model. It would bring a lot to the game, I would think.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's too bad. There's always so much focus on magic in D&D. And, it's true, sorcery can sure make a combat encounter interesting once things like your retreat is cut off by a well directed web spell, magic missiles start slamming into the party's mage, and lightning bolts arc across the battlefield.

Once I started playing the Conan game, I realized that the same type of excitement could be had with just plain old melee--just depending on what combat maneuvers (instead of spells) were used. One character runs then jumps off the side of a broken tomb wall, coming down hard with a side slicking blow, gaining a bonus to hit if his Use The Battlefield maneuver is successful. The Soldier takes advantage of the Reposte, gaining an extra return attack every time his opponent's attack roll is less than half the Soldier's Parry AC. One combatant uses the Trip to knock his opponent on the ground, but downed fighter uses the Kip-Up or the Roll to either regain his feet or roll to the side of an attack while prone. A warrior is having a hard time penetrating his foe's armor even when a hit is scored, so he drops his sword and jumps on the foe, using Grapple and his dagger to slice the man's throat. A thief uses Dance Aside when his foe rolls half his Dodge AC to gain an extra five feet of movement--just enough to keep his two-weaponed enemy from making a second attack with his off-hand. One fighter rolls his target's Parry AC exactly, and the blades of the two are locked in a shoving match using the Lock Weapons maneuver.

Combat with the Conan RPG is so amazing with these touches (and there are many, many more).

Someone should write a 5th Edition Supplement with the Conan RPG as a model. It would bring a lot to the game, I would think.

Have you ever given 4e a look-see? These maneuvers sound an awful lot like 4e Fighter and Rogue powers. Not precisely the same, to be sure, but some of this stuff strongly reminds me of it. Monks with their Full Discipline powers that make movement and attacking a "single action." Brawler Fighters who choke-slam dragons. Artful Dodger Rogues who dance, laughing, around their enemies. That sort of thing.

 

[SirAntoine]

Conan was actually the chief influence on D&D. The fighter's maneuvers in 5th Edition have impressive scope and power. I don't know if they can compare with the maneuvers of the Conan RPG, but as far as I know they're much more than we've seen from D&D before except for 4th Edition.

 

[Water Bob]

Have you ever given 4e a look-see? These maneuvers sound an awful lot like 4e Fighter and Rogue powers. Not precisely the same, to be sure, but some of this stuff strongly reminds me of it. Monks with their Full Discipline powers that make movement and attacking a "single action." Brawler Fighters who choke-slam dragons. Artful Dodger Rogues who dance, laughing, around their enemies. That sort of thing.

The difference, I'm guessing, is that, with Conan, any character can use the maneuvers as long as they qualify. I'm not trying to start a Conan discussion here, but there is so much that I like about the game (and not just the flavor of the game universe). What you write above reminds me that D&D has always been a class restrictive game. And, that's neither good nor bad. I love D&D just as much as anybody. One of the things about Conan that won me over was that, even though the game is created on the d20 3.5 system, enough slight tweaking was done to make the classes less restrictive. It's very easy for a Conan character to multi-class. It's not unusual to find a triple or quadruple classed character. That's by design, making it extremely easy to create unique characters. In D&D, a thief is a Thief class. In Conan, there is a Thief class, but a character doesn't have to have the class in order to be a thief. Anybody who steals is a thief. Conan, himself, is a low level Thief (gaining the class just to gain access to some thieving skills and Feats), but he doesn't progress farther than 1st or 3rd level. It's his Barbarian class that he continually improves even though he does become a master thief. And, there is no mage class in the Conan game. Anybody who deals with Sorcery is a sorcerer. Remember Thulsa Doom, from the first (1984) Arnold Conan movie? That character is a Soldier class, multiclassed with Scholar.

I love the effect this has on the game. There's no priest class. If I can convince you to follow me and my god, then I can be a priest, though I may be a Pirate or Nomad classed character.

Anyway, I'm digressing from 5E....










[MENTION=6731904]SirAntoine[/MENTION] wrote:

Conan was actually the chief influence on D&D. The fighter's maneuvers in 5th Edition have impressive scope and power. I don't know if they can compare with the maneuvers of the Conan RPG, but as far as I know they're much more than we've seen from D&D before except for 4th Edition.

Nothing about 4th edition I found tempting at all. It is 5th edition that has got my eyebrow peaked. From what I've seen (without buying any of the books) is that, to my amazement, they did it right.

I write today because, earlier, I stopped by Barnes & Noble with a buddy. We looked through the hardbacks. Man, it just looks like a well written game. We were both giddy as 4th graders when we left the store.

 

[fjw70]

How does one qualify for maneuvers in the Conan RPG? What are the main differentiators between classes?

 

[Water Bob]

How does one qualify for maneuvers in the Conan RPG?

Again, I really wasn't trying to derail this into a Conan discussion. Wrong forum for it.

But, to answer your question, each maneuver has a entry like a Feat, and maneuvers will have prerequisites. Some maneuvers have no prereqs, so any Character can use the maneuver at 1st level and up. An example is the Feint. Any character can attempt a feint if they spend the action (It's a Standard Action unless the Improved Feint Feat is gained, at which point it can be a Move Action, allowing the feint to take place in the same round in which it was started) and make the roll (Bluff vs. Sense Motive).

Some maneuvers have specific requirements, but most characters will eventually gain the requirement, like the Reposte. This maneuver allows the character to make an immediate free attack on his foe if the foe's attack is less than half the character's Parry AC. (If Parry AC 13, then an attack total of 6 or less would trigger the free attack.) The requirement is that the Base Parry Bonus (in Conan, the characters get Dodge and Parry bonuses at each level that are similar to Base Attack Bonuses) is +4 or greater.

See, the Reposte hides the fact that it is a hidden perk for the Soldier class, because Soldiers gain the Parry AC +4 at level 6 where as most of the other classes gain Parry AC +4 at level 8 or higher).

And, some maneuvers have very specific requirements--so much so that players can create unique combat styles for their characters based on the maneuver. For example, the Kip-Up allows a character to flip back to his feet from the prone position. A DC 20 Jump or Tumble check must be made when the character is knocked prone. If the throw is successful, the character immediately jumps back to his feet (but can be still victim to the Attack of Opportunity for standing up). Requirements for the Kip-Up, though, are quite specific: 5 Ranks in Jump or Tumble (Thus, the maneuver cannot be used until 2nd level at the earliest) and the Mobility Feat.

Characters without that specific combination of skill and feat will never be eligible to use the maneuver.

What are the main differentiators between classes?

There are nine base classes, and just about any type of character that you want to make can be made from combining these nine classes.



The first four are the extreme warrior types, native to the Hyborian Age. These three all have d10 hit die.

SOLDIER - anything from a city guardsman to strong arm in a band of thieves to a mercenary in an army.

BARBARIAN - Not just the "Conan" types, this class also includes any type of non-civilized people (Savage Picts and Kushites from the Black Coast are other popular barbarian types).

NOMAD - Possibly a little more civilized than a barbarian, but typically tied directly to horses.

BORDERER - What most would call a "Ranger". The Borderer lives and works on the fringe of civilization, usually with one foot among the civilized and one among the wilds. Traders and scouts would be good examples of a borderer.





We step down a notch in hit die to d8 with the next three, which are all typically civilized but rougher and tougher than the typical population.

THIEF - Any type, but usually based on a city with enough population from which to steal.

NOBLE - Because their upbringing usually includes the finest trainers (those that have adventuring in their blood)

PIRATE - Basically a thief that is moble on a ship. Pirates are typical on the Western coast and in the Vilayet Sea.





Then, the last two, are basically gifted civilians. These are d6 hit die characters (The Commoner class is d4 hit die).

SCHOLAR - A learned person who can read and write many languages and specializes in the Knowledge skills. This character makes the best Sorcerers.

TEMPTRESS - A neat character class that is usually female. Lady MacBeth, the Red Witch from Game of Thrones, and any generic foil who uses her sex to manipulate others and pull strings that only she can see, are all Temptresses.





ARE THERE OTHER CHARACTER CLASSES? Yes, you can find things in magazines and supplemental material. There are also some Prestige classes. And, if you really need something specific, you can create your own class or modify one of the ones provided in the game. But, I've never gotten excited about the other classes or paid much attention to the Prestige classes. Why? Because they're not necessary, and they're not really necessary for two main reasons.

1. There are three superb supplements that show a Conan GM how to modify the existing classes to fit what is needed. For example, the Barbarian character class is most suited for a Cimmerian barbarian like Conan (which makes a lot of sense, since the game is modeled after that character). What if you want a savage from the Black Kingdoms? Well, you change a couple of the class benefits, and, viola, the class fits barbarians from the Black Kingdoms well.

2. Those same supplements also do a fine job of showing the Conan GM how to combine the core classes into just about any type of character a person would want to play.

Need a Treasure Hunter? How about using a Pirate/Borderer? Or an Explorer? Flip it around and go Borderer/Pirate. Or, a Privateer? Try a Pirate/Soldier. Smuggler? Use a Pirate/Thief.

What about a Gypsy? Use a Temptress/Nomad. Bounty Hunter? Try using a Thief/Borderer. A Crime Lord? A Thief/Noble would do.

How about a Druid? Try Scholar/Borderer. An Assassin? A Soldier/Thief. A Shaman? Barbarian/Scholar. An Emissary? Try a Borderer/Noble. Guide? Borderer/Scholar. Outlaw? Borderer/Thief.





But, does a Pirate/Borderer multi-class have to be Treasure Hunter? And, does a Borderer/Pirate have to be an Explorer? Heck no! The characters are what you make them, and what is suggested is not the only way to create Treasure Hunters or Explorers. Your Shaman that you created by multi-classing Barbarian/Scholar will probably not be able to read! But there is enough about the Scholar class that will help a Barbarian classed character become a sorcerer for his people.


That should give you an idea of the less restrictive, loose class system used in the Conan RPG.

 

[fjw70]

Again, I really wasn't trying to derail this into a Conan discussion. Wrong forum for it.

But, to answer your question, each maneuver has a entry like a Feat, and maneuvers will have prerequisites. Some maneuvers have no prereqs, so any Character can use the maneuver at 1st level and up. An example is the Feint. Any character can attempt a feint if they spend the action (It's a Standard Action unless the Improved Feint Feat is gained, at which point it can be a Move Action, allowing the feint to take place in the same round in which it was started) and make the roll (Bluff vs. Sense Motive).

Some maneuvers have specific requirements, but most characters will eventually gain the requirement, like the Reposte. This maneuver allows the character to make an immediate free attack on his foe if the foe's attack is less than half the character's Parry AC. (If Parry AC 13, then an attack total of 6 or less would trigger the free attack.) The requirement is that the Base Parry Bonus (in Conan, the characters get Dodge and Parry bonuses at each level that are similar to Base Attack Bonuses) is +4 or greater.

See, the Reposte hides the fact that it is a hidden perk for the Soldier class, because Soldiers gain the Parry AC +4 at level 6 where as most of the other classes gain Parry AC +4 at level 8 or higher).

And, some maneuvers have very specific requirements--so much so that players can create unique combat styles for their characters based on the maneuver. For example, the Kip-Up allows a character to flip back to his feet from the prone position. A DC 20 Jump or Tumble check must be made when the character is knocked prone. If the throw is successful, the character immediately jumps back to his feet (but can be still victim to the Attack of Opportunity for standing up). Requirements for the Kip-Up, though, are quite specific: 5 Ranks in Jump or Tumble (Thus, the maneuver cannot be used until 2nd level at the earliest) and the Mobility Feat.

Characters without that specific combination of skill and feat will never be eligible to use the maneuver.







There are nine base classes, and just about any type of character that you want to make can be made from combining these nine classes.



The first four are the extreme warrior types, native to the Hyborian Age. These three all have d10 hit die.

SOLDIER - anything from a city guardsman to strong arm in a band of thieves to a mercenary in an army.

BARBARIAN - Not just the "Conan" types, this class also includes any type of non-civilized people (Savage Picts and Kushites from the Black Coast are other popular barbarian types).

NOMAD - Possibly a little more civilized than a barbarian, but typically tied directly to horses.

BORDERER - What most would call a "Ranger". The Borderer lives and works on the fringe of civilization, usually with one foot among the civilized and one among the wilds. Traders and scouts would be good examples of a borderer.





We step down a notch in hit die to d8 with the next three, which are all typically civilized but rougher and tougher than the typical population.

THIEF - Any type, but usually based on a city with enough population from which to steal.

NOBLE - Because their upbringing usually includes the finest trainers (those that have adventuring in their blood)

PIRATE - Basically a thief that is moble on a ship. Pirates are typical on the Western coast and in the Vilayet Sea.





Then, the last two, are basically gifted civilians. These are d6 hit die characters (The Commoner class is d4 hit die).

SCHOLAR - A learned person who can read and write many languages and specializes in the Knowledge skills. This character makes the best Sorcerers.

TEMPTRESS - A neat character class that is usually female. Lady MacBeth, the Red Witch from Game of Thrones, and any generic foil who uses her sex to manipulate others and pull strings that only she can see, are all Temptresses.





ARE THERE OTHER CHARACTER CLASSES? Yes, you can find things in magazines and supplemental material. There are also some Prestige classes. And, if you really need something specific, you can create your own class or modify one of the ones provided in the game. But, I've never gotten excited about the other classes or paid much attention to the Prestige classes. Why? Because they're not necessary, and they're not really necessary for two main reasons.

1. There are three superb supplements that show a Conan GM how to modify the existing classes to fit what is needed. For example, the Barbarian character class is most suited for a Cimmerian barbarian like Conan (which makes a lot of sense, since the game is modeled after that character). What if you want a savage from the Black Kingdoms? Well, you change a couple of the class benefits, and, viola, the class fits barbarians from the Black Kingdoms well.

2. Those same supplements also do a fine job of showing the Conan GM how to combine the core classes into just about any type of character a person would want to play.

Need a Treasure Hunter? How about using a Pirate/Borderer? Or an Explorer? Flip it around and go Borderer/Pirate. Or, a Privateer? Try a Pirate/Soldier. Smuggler? Use a Pirate/Thief.

What about a Gypsy? Use a Temptress/Nomad. Bounty Hunter? Try using a Thief/Borderer. A Crime Lord? A Thief/Noble would do.

How about a Druid? Try Scholar/Borderer. An Assassin? A Soldier/Thief. A Shaman? Barbarian/Scholar. An Emissary? Try a Borderer/Noble. Guide? Borderer/Scholar. Outlaw? Borderer/Thief.





But, does a Pirate/Borderer multi-class have to be Treasure Hunter? And, does a Borderer/Pirate have to be an Explorer? Heck no! The characters are what you make them, and what is suggested is not the only way to create Treasure Hunters or Explorers. Your Shaman that you created by multi-classing Barbarian/Scholar will probably not be able to read! But there is enough about the Scholar class that will help a Barbarian classed character become a sorcerer for his people.


That should give you an idea of the less restrictive, loose class system used in the Conan RPG.

Appreciate the rundown. Thanks.

It would be interesting to port those general maneuvers over to 5e. I will have to pickup a copy of that game some day.

One issue with making a Conan type game with 5e is that there a lot of magic using classes. it would be interesting to see someone convert the Conan system to 5e however. The 3e base is what has kept me from trying it out in the past.