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D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

bmfrosty

Explorer
You think they are producing oodles of @#$%! at a loss? I could see a few months here and there, but if there was a trend of definite loss, I think anyone with a brain would say it's time to cut our losses and move on to miniatures, board games, or something else.

How often was D&D unprofitable for TSR? Companies tend to "Stay the course" when losing money on product that used to be profitable for a long time. Companies big and small lose money for years on end before they lose their good credit or have to shutter operations. Look at TRS, Radio Shack, K-mart, 90% of tech startups, etc, etc, etc...

End point is that Paizo is a privately owned company that owns a well known brand and puts out plenty of product to see what sticks. We have a good idea that they were profitable in 2005 with Pathfinder (with it taking the torch from D&D 3.5), but we really don't know if Pathfinder has been profitable for the last couple of years as it's gotten older.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Mearls has stated that the 4e Red Box had good uptake, but there was limited retention and purchase of further products.
You have the OSR craze heating up, and you put out a boxed set with the art from an 80s basic set, but the stuff you put inside it is pretty nearly completely alien to the D&D of that era. So, sure, it flys off the shelves - and into the wastebin. Conversely, while not that many brand new players might have snapped it up, those I saw actually try the game for the first time in the Essentials period picked it up very easily. So you had a product that was better at attracting old players, but better at retaining new ones. At the time, it must have seemed like a brilliant compromise.

Part of the rationale of 5e was to make the "on-ramp" easier. A number of people in this thread have stated that they find the "wall of books" to be a barrier across the on-ramp. That seems plausible to me.
I can see how that affects the perception of the 'on ramp' before you start playing. The learning curve 5e presents a returning player is pretty smooth, too, it's different - but familiar. A new-to-gaming player confronted with 5e, OTOH, doesn't do so well. The players I've introduced to 5e who admit to having played D&D before, even if it was only a few times, 15+ years ago, seem to pick it up fairly well, they come back for a few sessions, at least. The new-to-gaming players, OTOH, I've yet to see one return. 4e & Essentials, it was the exact opposite. Returning players would give up on it fairly quickly, new ones would get into it surprisingly often. I say 'surprisingly' because I've introduced a lot of people to D&D in the last 35 years, and for most of that time, the most common response was try it once, never be seen again. 5e is back to that familiar pattern.

Thing is, I don't think it matters. There weren't /more/ new-to-gaming players showing up in the 4e & Essentials years, just more staying with it, but it'd take 20 years for that to add up to something. Conversely, there are so many played-a-while-in-the-80s folks that might yet return to the hobby, retaining them actually means something.

I've never played a computer game or MMO, but I've played 4e more than once. 4e seems to me to be built to appeal to game players, including people who care about the game (ie rules and mechanics) elements of RPGs, and the way those elements drive play. 4e isn't built to appeal to those who like the GM to play the predominant and mechanics-independent role in determining how a game unfolds.
Yeah. I've never gotten the point of making a complex rules system for players & GMs who actually just want to freestyle RP. Yet the idea had real traction in the industry in the late 90s - WWGS espoused the philosophy ("bad rules make good games") and was successful, for a while.

I guess if you have a group that doesn't want to embrace freestyle, and you present them with a system so bad that, at every turn, their best choice is to avoid using it, they'll start to see the moments when the game slips into freestyle RP mode as the best bits....

At some point, though, the publisher runs the risk of the players realizing they don't need to buy anything... ;P
 
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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
If supplements drive editions, why did we get 4e at all? Shouldn't the supplements have kept 3.5 afloat?

Because WotC makes its money on sales of Core rule books. See, for example, the fact that 3e, 3.5, 4e, Essentials and 5e were produced in about the same time frame that it took to go from 1e to 2e.
 

Sailor Moon

Banned
Banned
D&D suffers from big business syndrome. Profits aren't enough, ever rising profits is what holds the brand in it's jaws.

I'm sure 3rd edition was still making money, but it wasn't making enough profits even though it was probably still making profits in general.

Each edition supposed to raise the profit bar higher and higher, that's why we have the profit treadmill.

The thing with 3rd edition is it is still making money in the form of Pathfinder, so in essence Wizards could have kept going with that one.
 

Hussar

Legend
Because WotC makes its money on sales of Core rule books. See, for example, the fact that 3e, 3.5, 4e, Essentials and 5e were produced in about the same time frame that it took to go from 1e to 2e.

If that's true, then why bother with supplements at all? Just bang out a new core set every 3-5 years and save your cash.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
The reason we got the 1e Unearthed Arcana is because sales fell out of the bottom of 1e.

That's a massive oversimplification. As I recall, Unearthed Arcana was printed when Gary got back from the West Coast and found that the Blumes had basically run TSR into the ground (e.g. they had TSR purchase a needle and quilting company, for some reason), rather than sales simply drying up all on their own.

They printed 3e books at a loss. That's common knowledge. The core 3 for 3e were sold at below cost, just to get people to buy the books. And even then, sales tanked so quickly that we got 3.5 edition two years early. The supplements just couldn't make up the difference.

Again, that's not the whole of the story. WotC printed the 3E Core Rulebooks at a loss and sold them below cost because they were more than making up for it with sales of M:tG; trying to grow the D&D market over the long-term was something that the then-heads of WotC felt very strongly about, even if it meant short-term losses (since they could afford those losses thanks to Magic). However, Hasbro put a stop to that strategy when it split the D&D and Magic divisions of WotC into different areas of responsibility. With D&D no longer being supported by Magic, then they had to kick-start a new "edition" in order to make up the difference - it had nothing to do with sales suddenly worsening.

The infamous "d20 bust" of late-2002/early-2003 was caused by the announcement and release of 3.5, rather than the other way around.

So, if people rejected 4e because they "master it" or "figured it out", what's your explanation for 3e dying in even less time than 4e?

The explanation is Hasbro's corporate shenanigans yanking the rug out from under an otherwise-successful strategy of taking a short-term loss to try and grow a long-term future. By the time 4E came around, WotC didn't have to pivot on that stance any longer, and were focused on short-term profitability from the get-go.
 
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What every publisher wants to hear.

You're still thinking of WotC as "a publisher who sells D&D books".

In reality, it's closer to "the owners of the D&D IP, who will make their money off of novels, board games, video games, and movies, and who maintain a token pen-and-paper RPG line the sales of which they are mostly indifferent to after the core books have made a profit."
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
My first game of D&D ever was one of your Fivie games at Dundracon this year. Since then I've been to Endgame in Oakland every week to play and have been having a great time of it.
Yes! Thank you for for that, you made my day. :D

I did have a really good feeling about the 'Fivie' games at DunDraCon. I have a vivid memory of you, because you were my only new-to-gaming player, and because your story of how you came to try the game out was so counter to stereotype.

But with con games, you don't really know the long term impression you've made for the game, not like weekly events like Encounters where you can see new people come into the community and sometimes even watch them grow. I'm so glad to hear you've joined the hobby.

(Endgame is a cool venue, BTW, Good Omens used to run a mini-con there, the gaming tables are all on a sort of mezzanine. Anyone in the East Bay who somehow hasn't already heard of it should check it out.) *plug,plug* ;)
www.endgameoakland.com
 

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